Rule Debates Ep 3: Can Necron Deathmarks Fire In Their Opponents Turn?

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wizardv12222 (Over a year ago): - delete
Another benefit for deep striking on your opponents turn, is you are now free during your turn to move, shoot, and/or charge.

Personally I'd say that they cannot shoot. The rule (codex) just says they can deepstrike in. The fact that the deep strike rules says something about shooting is imo just letting you know the restrictions from deep striking, not saying you gain a shooting attack.

If you do allow them to shoot then the player whos turn it is, decides the order of who shoots first, since the codex doesn't say anything about shooting.

Dartdon0424 (Over a year ago): - delete
Face it, if you feel like you need to create a new rule for something that is RAI, then you are probably wrong. Most of these arguments are coming from Necron players that want their units to be more powerful, and the reason I can say that is it seems like as though most people speak as if they own Necrons, or end up arguing with no real evidence that it should be one way. I play Necrons and just tend to stray away from Deathmarks because I feel like they aren't as useful as other units. So we shouldn't just create ways for units to be better. I also play SM who struggle with the attack bikes, and I don't use them because of it. I don't sit around looking for any imaginable excuse to make them more powerful. Yes GW fails at describing rules as indepthly as they should, but it is not our job to correct them. If you want to use house rules for things go for it. But recognize that you are, in general, wrong. Shooting can only happen in your own shooting phase, the two exceptions to this are Interceptor and Overwatch, not deep striking. The specific Necron rule says that "after an enemy unit arrives from reserve, any Deathmark units in Deepstrike reserve that have not yet entered play can themselves choose to enter play via Deep Strike, usually in the enemy turn." The Deep Strike rule says that, "In that turn's shooting phase, these units can fire (or run) as normal". But normally they can't shoot because the rule book specifically states that you can only shoot in your turn. The benefit that everyone is looking for is that you can move and assault in your turn with the units that arrived in the enemy turn. They are not the best units in the game when it comes to assault, but that doesn't mean it isn't still a benefit to the unit. So how about we all stop trolling with the thumbs up and thumbs down and just look at it the way it is, but hey, at least we can all agree that GW writes rules pretty terribly.

m0nkey (Over a year ago): - delete
you also might want to consider just giving death marks the interceptor special rule as part of your house rule (meaning if you shoot in your opponents turn you then don't shoot in your turn) might make it more balanced, I also like what obsidiankatana said

Azeebo (Over a year ago): - delete
If you find your self adding rules to make a rule more than it is, then that should really be an inclination that you are wrong.

A lot of games workshops rules that dont make much sense, but are there for fluffy reasons. For example, in the last necron codex the Ctan instantly destroyed all phase weapons when hit by them. Bearing in mind, there was 1 phase weapon in the ENTIRE 40k universe with the name Phase Weapon...this rule was ultimately useless since the one model that had the weapon was in a codex that nobody played. Rules like this are scattered everywhere in GW prints, and adds flavor to the unit...not necessarily an advantage.

I dont think you can give enough evidence to justify such a ruling personally, there is too many if's, but's and errrm's to be considered. What other people do is up to them, but if someone starts telling me this is how it works in my games i am not going to just lay down and let them add house rules...or as i sometimes call it: Make Crap Up.

Fionnvar (Over a year ago): - delete
Interceptor is fired at the end of the enemy Movement phase.
Overwatch is fired in the enemy Assault phase.

If there is a rule for shooting in the enemy Shooting phase, please let me know.

_edge_ (Over a year ago): - delete
@Spacefrisian: Except it does, it says they arrive via deep strike.

Arriving by deep strike (pg 36)says "In that turn's Shooting phase, these units can fire (or Run)as normal,..."

So in the player turn you arrive you can shoot in that player turn's shooting phase.

Nichimus (Over a year ago): - delete
If people are taking the RAW to manipulate them so you can shoot in the enemy phase, then you need to pay attention to the deep strike rule carefully. Can shoot as normal.

Now following "Normal" shooting procedure on the 1st paragraph of the shooting section sentence 2. "In Warhammer 40,000 we split up the firing so that each players forces fires during the shooting phase of his own turn".

If your taking the RAW, use them all not just the parts that you want.

MiniWarGaming (Over a year ago): - delete
@Fionnvar: So then I guess the Interceptor rule and Overwatch don't work?

obsidiankatana (Over a year ago): - delete
Ethereal interception implies they're going after a single unit as a reaction to their deep strike. If you want to be as literal as possible, they can only shoot the unit they intercepted.

coolpall33 (Over a year ago): - delete
"There don't seem to be rules to handle this" (talking about who shoots first).

"It doesn't say in what order to resolve it"

Seriously Matt

Pg 10
At other times, you will find that both players will have to do something at the same time. When these things happen, the player whose turn it is decides the order in which the events occur. OCCASIONALLY THE ACTIONS OF ONE PLAYER, WILL TRIGGER THE APPEARANCE OF A PARTICULAR UNIT.

Sorry for caps but was a little bit annoyed about it.

Not going to repeat arguments,

Other Comments

zippercomics (Over a year ago): - delete
Heh ... I see this is an old debate, and perhaps I'm missing the bus on this one, but ... I called GW Customer Service and asked for a clarification on this rule. They said that indeed, the Deathmarks can deploy in reaction to a Deep Strike, but that's the only action they can take. No shooting, no moving, etc. So not as awesome as it could be, sure, but I think it still has an advantage or two.

Just throwing my 2 cents in. I hope I'm not way off base, and there's a forum post somewhere saying the same (or worse yet, the opposite).

prot (Over a year ago): - delete
I have never had this interpretation myself, and I use Deathmarks. The 'advantage' I see from 'interception' is that when my turns comes, my Deathmarks can move and act normally as if they didn't deep strike. (Since you used Deep Strike in your opponent's turn.)

Ploop12 (Over a year ago): - delete
@meckler89: That will only work for the one unit that you have marked for death.

Raurix (Over a year ago): - delete
since Drop pod assault is technically deepstriking on turn 1, can deathmarks deepstrike turn 1 if the enemy has a drop pod?

inaudibleThrash (Over a year ago): - delete
It makes sense that the Deathmarks shoot at the same time as the enemy after they Deep Strike, but with the whole interceptors thing it kind of implies that they shoot first. Either either I guess.

dream (Over a year ago): - delete
In my opinion I think it makes sense for them to shoot when they arrive, as you say there's just no point to the rule otherwise. The only thing that I can see which I feel is missing from their deep strike which you could use to make an arguement for it being useful would be that they don't scatter if they appear with a certain radius of their target. That is absolutly not the rule though so as written without being abel to shoot when they arrive it's a useless rule.

MT519 (Over a year ago): - delete
Its simple just useing the word "Intercept" make them shoot first. Verb1. to stop, deflect, or seize on the way from one place to another; prevent from arriving or proceeding

Pointystick11 (Over a year ago): - delete
As many others have stated NOWHERE does it say they can shoot on the enemy turn. Additionally, others have already stated it but there are advantages to deep striking on their turn. (Maybe not the greatest.) The fact is there are also just useless rules out there.

Voloch (Over a year ago): - delete
I'm confused. Nowhere in the Deathmark rules does it say it can shoot on the turn it arrives. So isn't this debate pointless? Etherel Interception only states that they can enter in the enemy's turn, not shoot, enter. Not even the FAQ has an Errata or FAQ on it.
Now, why take them then?
1) Well, deploying immediately as a reaction can thwart your enemy's plan with his reserves.
2)You don't need to roll for reserves yourself.
3) Sniper Rules!
4) Rapid Fire Snipers!
5) 2 wounding on annoying units.
Anyays, that's just my take on it. If I where ever to build a Necron list, these would def be in it en masse, even if they can't shoot in the enemy's turn.

RexPopuli (Over a year ago): - delete
Most sensible way to resolve 40K rule ambiguities: Simply make your own wherever the rules refuse to make sense (which happens too frequently)...Argument is often pointless due to the very fact that the rules simply weren't thought out by the designers

xxfltcom (Over a year ago): - delete
The posts show that this "interpretation" is just rules manipulation. "if they can't shoot they they aren't worth the points". Now that's a Power gamers argument.

xxfltcom (Over a year ago): - delete
@SkavenPlaugeMonk: Sorry they are way too random with acts of faith. And there is nothing to overcome str 3 t 3. They have too many units that just don't work and have a high point cost. The only thing that stands out are retribution squad with heavy bolters but you have to roll for that. They should have increased the probability of these going off.

krushgroove (Over a year ago): - delete

grey-knecrons (Over a year ago): - delete
If it is "interceptor" it would fire at the end of the movement phase, not during the shooting phase, wouldnt it?

UndeadGerbil (Over a year ago): - delete
Maybe... Just maybe, they DON'T shoot when they arrive but because they came on the enemy turn then they're allowed to move and assault in their subsequent turn; meaning they only wait one player turn to move as opposed to one game turn?

meckler89 (Over a year ago): - delete
Matt this tactic has proven to be amazing for me in past battles with my deathmarks. Basically you take 5 to 10 deathmarks with a veil cryptek and additional harbinger of same kind but with out a veil. Both Crypteks have the flamer that is S8 AP1 but goes against the targets Ld BUT as per the FAQ they benefit from the deathmarks marked by death ability so they will auto wound on a 2 . So you will be S8 AP1 that ignores armour and cover with 2 templates not to mention the deathmarks shots and that can all deep strike per the veil. And even if you happen to mishap you would have to roll a 1 to die but if you delay oh well but even if they enemy gets to pick your location you just re veil the next turn and try again. This tactic is able to obliterate any unit that does not have an invul but even then it is devastating. I highly suggest trying it out in one of your batreps!!!.

Also as far as what the reason could be why you could deep strike in the opponents turn is they dont need a roll as well as they can move shoot and assault as normal come there turn since the deep struck in the enemies turn. This is very helpful because you can deep strike a little back more then normal because come your turn you can move 6" and then get into rapid fire range.

SkavenPlaugeMonk (Over a year ago): - delete
@xxfltcom: actually the sisters of battle were updated in a white dwarf and they are very viable now

Yurdahil (Over a year ago): - delete
Have to disagree with that one.

Playing Necrons myself, I would be glad for each buff for the Deathmarks, because I just love them.
As Fionnvar stated several times, Overwatch and Interceptor are stated as exeptions and do not happen in the enemy's shooting phase.
This discussion has been on some forums since already in 5th and I still have to say no.

I just see it as a fluffy special rule. Though funny how my deathmarks tend to "wait in hyperspace" already being dead as it seems because of misshapps...

I agree with whoever stated the Harbinger of Despair trick, because this one makes them awesome and more reliable.

Spacefrisian (Over a year ago): - delete
@Nighthawknm: thats a set rul vs charging.

Fionnvar (Over a year ago): - delete
you are mixing all terms. A players Turn is divided into three main phases: Movement, Shooting and Assault phase.
The rules (p.12 first paragraph) for the Shooting phase state, that in this phase only the player shoots, if it is his own turn.

I guess with 'snap shot' you are refer the Overwatch rule of the Assault phase rules. But the Overwatch rule makes an explicit exception, that the enemy player is allowed to shoot.

Even the shoots of an Interceptor happen in the Movement phase, not in the Shooting phase. You could argue, that this rule is too short, because never in the rulebook is explained what 'fireing' in the Movement phase means. But assume it is an exception and worked out like an shooting attack like in the Shooting phase.

The Deepstrike rule makes no explicit exception. It says 'fire as normal'. If it is your turn, your units can shoot in your Shooting phase. This rule does not overwrite the normal rules of the Shooting phase.

So, please prove us wrong and tell us only one rule where you are allowed to shoot in your enemy Shooting phase.

Rated_lexxx (Over a year ago): - delete
@xxfltcom: best troll ever. You had me going for awhile

xxfltcom (Over a year ago): - delete

You were wrong about the death ray. You're wrong about this. Americans are terrible rule manipulators but Canadians?

Pull down these stupid rule "debate" (and that term is used very loosely) videos, all your doing is creating turmoil amongst players by concocting rules conundrums where there are none. The rules work fine, you are pulling out more and more meaning to validate what you want.

Why don't you do some rules bending or cheating I should say with the sisters of battle codex. Those players really need a "debate" to make it a viable army to play a friendly game with.

Diap (Over a year ago): - delete
Hey man I have a debate for you if can look up beasts of and go to the Tau form and look for one called Can sky ray and seeker missiles be back? It's a debate about can seek or missiles shoot at bs five at flyers? You're you want me to I can make a comment about but I thought you might want to see what people have said about so far it's a tie and thanks

splithead (Over a year ago): - delete
@Nighthawknm: My statement was I don't shoot in YOUR Shooting phase and I agree YOUR model arriving from deep strike during YOUR turn shoot normally having moved during YOUR movement phase but my models can't normally shoot in YOUR shooting phase so why would I be able to shoot in YOUR shooting phase just because MY model arrived on YOUR turn.

cpt420 (Over a year ago): - delete
@ stpwnage

(Vehicles/ Chariots)
[Fighting from a Chariot]

"While a chariot cannot strike blows in close combat, it's an excellent fighting platform for it's rider. Accordingly, the rider of the chariot is treated as being in base contact with all enemy models that are themselves in contact with the chariot. This means that the chariot's rider can both strike, and be struck by, such models. Note that, as a vehicle, the chariot (and it's rider, whilst embarked) cannot be locked in combat."

6th ed. FAQ for Necron codex

Page 81 %u2013 Necron Wargear, Mindshackle Scarabs.
Replace the second paragraph with the following:
%u201CAt the start of the Fight sub-phase, randomly select an enemy
model in base contact with the bearer of the mindshackle
scarabs. That model must immediately take a Leadership test
on 3D6. If the test is passed, the mindshackle scarabs have no
effect. If the test is failed, the victim strikes out at his allies.
Instead of attacking normally, he inflicts D3 hits on his own
unit (or himself, if on his own or in a challenge) when it is his
turn to attack. These hits are resolved at the victim's Strength
and benefit from any abilities and penalties from his Melee
weapons (the controller of the mindshackle scarabs chooses
which weapon he uses, if there is a choice). If he is still alive,
the victim returns to the owning player%u2019s control once all blows
in that round of combat have been struck.%u201D

So I would say yes.

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About this Content
MiniWarGaming's Avatar Author: MiniWarGaming
Added: September 10, 2012
Rated: 12345 (5)

Using the Ethereal Interception rule in the Necron Codex the Deathmarks can deep strike in their opponent's turn. But does this mean they can fire in their turn as well?

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