Rule Debates Ep 2: Does the Necron Death Ray Hit Flyers?

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Qward (Over a year ago): - delete
I agree with Matt's house rule. Here is my logic. It is a Death Ray. A Ray is a narrow beam of light. It is not a "wave" or a "fan." You should not be able to hit both at the same time.

dayio (Over a year ago): - delete
@sirlynchmob: If you have skyfire you no longer have to snap shot....

Krelian (Over a year ago): - delete
From FAQ
"The Death Ray can hit Flyers in Hover Mode (friendly or enemy) and Gliding Flying Monstrous Creatures (friendly or
enemy). It cannot hit Zooming Flyers or Swooping Flying Monstrous Creatures."

m0nkey (Over a year ago): - delete
I agree with that. If for no reason than the weapon is overpowered otherwise. The death ray would be the only weapon that can hit ground and flying targets equally with the same shot. The wording of the death ray is from an edition that did not have flyers so the wording did not need to specify flyer or ground targets, clearly something that needs an FAQ, but until then your house rule is a fair compromise.

mossyfern (Over a year ago): - delete
in the rules for snap shots (pg 13) it says weapons that have certain special rules (such as blast or ordnance) can't fire as snap shots.

In the rules for flyers (pg.81) its says in bold shots taken against flyers can ONLY be resolved as a snap shot. If it's not a snap shot, can't hit a flyer. It goes on to mention blast weapons and templates can also not hit flyers.

In the rules for skyfire (pg 42), it only gives permission to shoot at your normal ballistic skill. That is all. It does not give permission for weapons with template or special rules to fire. It does not negate or take away the 'hard to hit' characteristic.

So there you have it... only snap shots may be taken... weapons with special rules may not be snap shots... having a normal ballistic skill from skyfire is irrelevant... therefore a flyer may not be hit with the weapon.

MortisLegio (Over a year ago): - delete
I agree with Matt's house rule. It seems the most logical to me.

lostmywings (Over a year ago): - delete
Im afraid I have to disagree with you guys. For me the description combined with the "1mm thick" implies a specific shape to the weapon. Just like the GW templates. Yes the GW ones are called templates but they are only logical shapes based on the types of weapon, a circle/sphere for an explosion and a standard spray as you call it for breaths/fire/clouds etc. Using an example I'm sure everyone is familiar with, the iron man hand beam (don't know the name, don't hate me!). If you swipe a beam weapon in a straight line, it only ever has a 2D effect on the world, 1 dimension is left to right and the 2nd is depth ie something further away. The only way this weapon would make sense when hitting aircraft is if the beam comes from above so as to eliminate the 3rd dimension. Aiming a beam at the floor and moving sideways, it would not jump up into the air to encompass an aircraft.

Other Comments

MephistonLordOfTheNarwhals (Over a year ago): - delete
Yes, I think that house rule is fair

RougeCJ (Over a year ago): - delete
I believe that the Doom Scythe flies over the battlefield, therefor when it draws a line on the "battlefield," everything underneath the line is hit. Flyers or units. I quote form the Necron Codex "every unit (friendly or enemy) underneath the line suffers a number of hits equal to the number of models in the unit underneath the line" a flyer is a model so it's hit. And so everything under the line from a Doom Scythe is hit, that is my opinion

xxfltcom (Over a year ago): - delete
DC guy got it right huh? You two should come back on and explain how the Death Ray can still hit flyers because the battlefield is in time/space possibilities are infinite and that it depends what the meaning of the word "resolved" is or is not....

Aurgelmir (Over a year ago): - delete
FAQ is out, this discussion is no longer viable

stpwnage (Over a year ago): - delete

He should be perching in the corner sounding like a 50 year old smoker discussing these rules

sirlynchmob (Over a year ago): - delete
Sorry matt, the new FAQ is out and they say no to death rays hitting zoomers.

QuidoYafet (Over a year ago): - delete
well I guess we can take it the same way as templates and multi-storey buildings, so if the death rays controlling player chooses to aim for the flyer, the death ray can't hit the surface units and vice versa

xxfltcom (Over a year ago): - delete
Pg 80 flyers/flyers and measuring "Flyers have flying bases that suspend them ABOVE the BATTLEFIELD."

Sorry the battlefield isn't the 3D space that DC wishes it to be because the flyer is clearly not part of "the battlefield" if it is above it. I hope GW FAQs this soon cause that weapon is so crazy powerful.

In the interim the power gamers around MWG are gonna get sick of playing necrons v necron for alm the tournaments.

Llannaer (Over a year ago): - delete
Well, I do agree with this very reasonable proposal, but %u2013 of course - the doubts remain.
It is worth mentioning that the death ray is not the only example of missing explanation by GW, as Mr Freeloader put it %u2013 psykers with their automatically hitting psychic attacks are not covered as well (at least I didn't find it).
I think that there is probably one more issue to consider %u2013 the nature of this special weapon (the death ray) and the implementation of specific (advanced) rule over general (basic) rule (pg. 7 of 6th ed. rulebook). By the way, GW had perfect opportunity to explain the death ray inability to hit flyers when writing FAQ and errata for Necron codex. The rule for the death ray is clear %u2013 you nominate two points, first one at max distance of 12" (which is not particularly immense), and another one at max 3D6" which is also not exaggerated (at average 10"), with additional restriction that you cannot nominate the second one closer than the first one to the flyer. I'd say that you can completely exclude death ray from rules related to BS depending weapons and by marking two points in 3 dimensional battlefield you already limit ability to hit multiple targets on the ground at the same time as in the air. How many models can you cover with one straight line going from a point on the table to the point in the air let's say 8" above the table when you expect to roll 3D6 around 10" (diagonally, so the line on the table will be much shorter)???
I completely disagree with concepts "what GW had in mind while writing the rule", because that's not the case of necessity to explain the death ray because of lack of clarity (what sometimes justifies "rule as intended" discussions), it's the case of lack of any restriction related to targeting flyers. Just to remind you, if any special rule is supposed to be limited somehow, than it is (usually) described. Already there was one doubt about the death ray concerning the number of models hit underneath the line, but let us clearly conclude that nothing now should authorize us to restrict the death ray if it fires as described in the codex, regardless which unit is hit. It's not a template weapon, it's specific Necron toy repeated in Imotekh's arsenal in a slightly weaker version.
Matt, Kraig, I really appreciate your input, thank you very much. Anyway I think that it is much more ambiguous issue you plan to relate to in the third part of your debate %u2013 interception by Deathmarks.
Sorry for this long post...

chebba98 (Over a year ago): - delete
i totally agree with u matt, thats how im going to play it now...

fleabag (Over a year ago): - delete
the most interesting point made by a gw staff is that the weapon uses a template (i.e. using the ruler/ measuring tape) and he concluded being that and flyers not allowed to be hit by template would make it not able to hit flyers. As an ork player with a burna bomber I am happy to hear that point.

amega89 (Over a year ago): - delete
personally i agree with your ruling until an official faq comes out for the weapon. great job guys and keep up the good work

CaptainArgento (Over a year ago): - delete
Clearly none of the MWG crew has played against the flying circus, or have watched videos of the GT circuit. This ruling would make an army that is already OP, even more OP, cheesier than the Grey Knights of 5th ed.

A str 10 ap 1 shot at flyers? Really? I can guarantee GW never thought this would be an issue. At 2k, a necron player can bring 12 other army comes close. This issue is moot. Purely unbalanced if you agree with Matt, just saying...

McrSlayer23 (Over a year ago): - delete
makes great sense to me!

packetboy (Over a year ago): - delete
I agree with you... It's a good call. (I think in the case of the "death ray" the rule shoul say: -cannot be'fired at a unit' as a Snap Shot.

Killbybean123 (Over a year ago): - delete
In reality the death ray should hit ground or air forces u have to choose because it depends on what the driver/s of the flyer is aiming at.

akaCasper (Over a year ago): - delete
i agree, it's fair and logical!

blade_runner_28 (Over a year ago): - delete
please please please can i have your thoughts on Oberyn Cleaving counter blow before you leave necrons would really appreciate it

blade_runner_28 (Over a year ago): - delete
best way to deal with a situation that could leave either side feeling bad!

mossyfern (Over a year ago): - delete
Oh, also on pg. 13 it notes that any attack which does not use a ballistic skill cannot be fired as a snap shot, that is perfectly clear. There is also nothing in the rules for death ray that mentions using a ballistic skill.

Gangrel767 (Over a year ago): - delete
Matt - A question about your next video, perhaps you can cover it if you read this beforehand. If Deathmarks can fire in the enemy shooting phase do to their deep strike ability in the enemies turn... does this mean that anyone entering play using Nemesor Zahndrekh's deep strike power can also shoot in the enemy shooting phase?

mossyfern (Over a year ago): - delete
In the rules for snap shots,

B1acKni9ht (Over a year ago): - delete
I agree with the miniwargaming houserule as well. It seems to be the best compromise regarding the rules and it makes sense visually and logically.

Rated_lexxx (Over a year ago): - delete
That was a drive by Danning

MrFreeloader (Over a year ago): - delete
How does a psychic shooting attack, say the zoanthrope's lance attack apply with flyers?

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About this Content
MiniWarGaming's Avatar Author: MiniWarGaming
Added: September 4, 2012
Rated: 12345 (6)

Matthew and Kraig talk about whether or not the Necron Death Ray can hit flyers. What do you think?

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