Rule Debates Ep 1: Swarms, Blasts, and Instant Death

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Killbybean123 (Over a year ago): - delete
Matt plasma cannons are strength 7 ap 2

sirlynchmob (Over a year ago): - delete
pg 14, the wound pool:

Pg 15, Take saving throws: and note how many unsaved wounds are caused.

Double wounds due to swarm rule into the wound pool. As it states unsaved wounds on pg 43, they would be doubled before allocations.

Start allocating unsaved wounds. until the would pool is empty.

So an ID from a blast would kill 2 bases.

DarkPrinceRaven (Over a year ago): - delete
I'd be interested to see a rule debate on grounded tests for flying monstrous creatures. As rules as written indicates that you can be forced to take grounded tests in the same shooting phase even after failing one.

General-Cross (Over a year ago): - delete
I like this new series Matt. You take contested arguments and work through them methodically. As a suggestion, how about each person argues for a specific interpretation so we see both sides of the argument, like in a real debate, then see if a conclusion is reached. I look forward to seeing the Deathray and Fliers ruling.

stpwnage (Over a year ago): - delete

Esparoba3 (Over a year ago): - delete
@Todda: the swarm rule never stated that the swarm base needs to have a wound allocated on him to double the wound, it just states if he suffers an unsaved wound, so if a swarm fails its safe a extra wound is added to the wound pool.

RoberttheWise (Over a year ago): - delete
Matt: "We want to keep this videos short and concise".
Me: "Ha! Haha!"

Other Comments

Alyzire (Over a year ago): - delete
As of 7th edition this rule is much clearer ID wounds never get doubled and only unsaved wounds which are already allocated do. It also clarifies a model with the swarm special rule not a unit is affected. So congrats, you have been doing it right all along.

prot (Over a year ago): - delete
You're essentially talking about 'carrying over wounds'. I don't think that you do any carry over. Regardless, of instant death, or 2 wounds from a single blast. There is _no_other precedent for wound carry over. Logically it would pertain to the model being hit, imho.

Raurix (Over a year ago): - delete
as far as the rule is concerned, I think the wound stays with the model, and all "extra characteristic" type rules associated with that wound goes with it. Take the force weapon for example, if a model dies before the force weapon activates, you dont instakill a different model in combat with the force weapon...

Raurix (Over a year ago): - delete

xxfltcom (Over a year ago): - delete

Praetorian13 (Over a year ago): - delete
My buddy brings up to 4 Nurgling swarms They are hard as heck to kill off, really cheap (points wise) When you have 36 bases of 3 wound figures that is a LOT of targets!

panzerfart (Over a year ago): - delete
Yeah, it all comes down to whether the term "swarm" counts as a model or as a unit.
In either case, I think it's irrelevant because swarms are ALWAYS same models with same stats. You shoot at them, they take their saves, and unsaved wounds at this point (meaning failed saves) are added to the wound pool.
In my honest opinion, since this is the first moment that the term "unsaved wound" appears (filling up the wound pool), then my reasoning leaves me to double that wound pool since all models are swarms.

Furthermore, just like in 5th ed, I'm quite stubbornly oriented in this case to common sense. If you take an automatic rifle and blast away at an anthill, each hit will blast apart many ants but still leave many alive. If you throw a molotov coctail or the like, you'll have a multiplied effect. One ant doesn't burn many times, but all of them burn at the same time.
Does this make any sense to anyone else?

_edge_ (Over a year ago): - delete
Armour saves (pg16)

"To take an armour save, roll a D6 and compare the results to the
Armour Save characteristic of the model that has been allocated
the Wound."

"If the result is lower than the Armour Save value, the
armour fails to protect its wearer and it suffers a Wound."

1. The wound has already been allocated before you roll a save as you must use a models characteristics. When you fail the save the model suffers an unsaved wound, this unsaved wound is then fed back into the wound allocation protocol and dealt with as per the rules being used. Wounds for equal save throws are always against a model not a unit, see Fast Dice (pg 16), you are just allocating them as a group rather than individually.

2. Clearly states this is where you "suffer" the unsaved wound

3. The fact a base is a swarm not a unit does not matter as you must take the armour save against a model not a units save characteristics as a unit does not have one.

The only "suffers an unsaved wound when the unsaved wound is allocated" argument clearly does not make sense. If the wound was doubled on allocation it would say on allocation, see Look out, Sir! (pg 16)

"When a Wound (or unsaved Wound) is allocated to one of your

Kolonel Kraig (Over a year ago): - delete
@Togen2063: In essence that would produce 6 wounds.... Each base has three. I often find that the employees in GW shops have no more knowable than players. I still hold true to the fact that doubling the wounds and then apply instant death to the whole unit makes swarms useless as a unit. In the sprit of fun of playing the game I be leave it should be as Matt and I discussed - untill FAQ'ed of course.

blade_runner_28 (Over a year ago): - delete

blade_runner_28 (Over a year ago): - delete
please could you cover the Necron cleavig counter blow rule

Togen2063 (Over a year ago): - delete
I discussed this with a GW employee and all the other employees in that shop and they said " first the wounds are doubled and then instant death takes affect " therefore a single wound inflicted on a unit with the swarm special rule that takes wound that's double its toughness and is a template the unit takes 2 instant death wounds i.e. 2 bases are killed no 4 wounds.

Yarr (Over a year ago): - delete
I would say it has to work as you guys describes because while it doesn't actually say in the book I believe it's clear a Swarm isn't a unit but a model and that changes the alternative into a ridiculous situation that I think everyone would agree couldn't be true.

Why is a Swarm a model and not a unit? Firstly Swarm is a Special Rule and it only mentions on pg 32 to the fact that these apply to models. Secondly an IC can join a unit of models with Swarm but the IC isn't a Swarm and it's pretty clear that the unit isn't a Swarm because they don't all share that rule.

So how does it get to a ridiculous situation? Well lets take the situation 9 bases of Rippers get a single wound from a Krak grenade. They can't save it and it's equal to double the toughness so it causes instant death. You apply the unsaved wound to the swarm base then the rule kicks in, this is from a blast so it doubles and the first wound insta-deaths. You then apply that extra wound to another base, you've just applied an unsaved wound caused by a blast to a swarm so it doubles again. That would continue on until all 9 swarm bases were wiped out from a single unsaved wound. I think everyone can agree that it's clear that's not the intention.

Bannzai (Over a year ago): - delete
After all this, I'm still undecided! (Nice video idea btw).

IMHO all this confusion comes about because there is no definition of "A Swarm". Sure, we have units/models that can have the "Swarm" special rule, but nowhere are we told what "A Swarm" is. Is it a model with the Swarm SR? Is it a unit containing models with the Swarm SR?

Almost all of other special rules use a much better wording style: "If a model with the X rule..." or "A unit that contains at least one model with the Y special rule..." or "...equipped with a weapon that has the Z special rule..."

The inconsistencies and ambiguities in GW rules drive me insane!

BlackStone (Over a year ago): - delete
INSTANT DEATH page 16..This answers the instant death question. If it says "see page ??, read page ??. Maybe GW should have wrote it as "GOTO PAGE ?? AND READ PAGE ??. If a MODEL suffers an unsaved would from an attack that has a strength value of double its toughness value or greater, it is reduced to 0 wounds and removed as a casualty. So if the model(swarm) suffers two wounds, would you have to remove that 1 model(the same model)twice.

BlackStone (Over a year ago): - delete
In 6th edition there are rules in the descriptions !/?

BlackStone (Over a year ago): - delete
As you pointed out during this video, if it meet unit it would say unit suffers. No,No, is says (These creatures are so multitudinous that they cannot be picked out individually and must be fought as a group. Its not unit nor model, but base. You are hitting a base of multi- models. It should a say swarm base suffering a wound .....!

weeverman (Over a year ago): - delete
4:44 Oops. Awkward moment.

WaldiSP (Over a year ago): - delete
Concerning nurgle swarms: Demons aren't eternal warriors anymore. The rule was part of the demonic special rule, but they took that part out.

RabbiPT (Over a year ago): - delete
Plasma Cannon is S7...

Kolonel Kraig (Over a year ago): - delete
@DarkPrinceRaven: be sure to check back- all I can say.....

GruenerT (Over a year ago): - delete
1. MWGs houserule makes the most sense to me in gamebalanceterms.

2. RAW ( english rulebook ) i would go with the keyword "suffers" here. A swarm only suffers from the wound once its actually allocated to a specific model. At that point we are not talking about woundpools anymore, but about the specific model. Afterall, we do create a wound pool, but resolve every wound indiviually against a model and treat the respective effects.

Maybe it helps maybe it doesnt. I got the english and the german rulebook here and in the german rulebook they marked special rules ( specifically the ones listed under the special rules section ) in cursive. The words [i]swarm/swarms[/i] or respectively [i]Schwarm/Schwaerme[/i] are marked cursive, so it refers to the special rules. They dont mark the words squad, unit, squadron, etc. So that makes it particularly clear to me as translations are as intended and not done by google-translate.

To give an example why carry-over-swarmwounds would make a total mockery imagine a unit consisting of 7 normal guys and a swarmbase in the front. Getting 4 guys under a battlecannon template would mean 8 dead guys.

Kolonel Kraig (Over a year ago): - delete
@DahWarbozzz: in regards to Owen's creeping - stay tuned. He and I get into a heated future debate... good times

Suneki (Over a year ago): - delete
The process do change if all models in the unit have the same save or not.

I disagree with those that feel the extra wounds are added to the pool. The reason is that you cannot double the wound before it is allocated to a base with the swarm rule, since it is possible to have a model without that rule in the unit. Because of that it makes the most sense to double the wound when it is allocated.

Yurdahil (Over a year ago): - delete
So, if I read some of the comments right, a few of you guys think this way:

- A unit of swarms gets hit by a S6 blast. It inflicts two unsaved wounds. Now because all the unit is the same and its a swarm you double the wounds so goind to 4 and then insta-killing 4 bases.
- Same swarm has now a independent character attached which is standing in the back, while again 2 swarm bases are hit by the same blast. Just because there is an independent character attached you would now NOT double the wounds, because not the whole unit is swarm and has different armor saves. So you would inflict two wounds, which are not doubled and would then insta-kill 2 bases.

Makes no sense to me. I agree with Matt here, that you double wounds on the model as allocated.

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About this Content
MiniWarGaming's Avatar Author: MiniWarGaming
Added: August 30, 2012
Rated: 12345 (6)

If a Swarm is hit with a high strength blast or template weapon, do you double the number of instant deaths applied?

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