2400 Empire for a Tournament, choosing between 2 lists.

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Which list should I use?

List 1 - Cavalry Heavy
2
40%
List 2 - Infantry Galore
3
60%
 
Total votes: 5

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Arnathos
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2400 Empire for a Tournament, choosing between 2 lists.

Post by Arnathos » Mon Feb 23, 2015 3:09 am

So this weekend our local warhammer group is organizing a tournament. It will be 2400 points and largely uncomped, the main restrictions are done through scenario's with Watchtower and Blood & Glory being very important sources for points, thus forcing a balanced list. Other Scenario's include meeting engagement, dawn attack and battle for the pass. So its a tournament without battle line!

I've been torn between 2 lists, the first is a radical(for me) cavalry heavy list. I have little experience with cavalry lists and have usually not been too succesful with them. The plus side is that it is fast to deploy and clean up and should have quick turns, because I am also a rules judge, this alone makes it very attractive as it gives me time to babysit other players and help them with rules issues(most of the people haven't played fantasy in years, or think they are still playing 6th edition.).

The 2nd list is a comfortable, tried and true infantry block list. I've run something similar many times and it has a good 80% win percentage. I've changed a few bells and whistles around it, but its mostly just loads of halberdiers with +1 to hit and tons of re-rolls.


List 1:

Lords:

Grand Master
Shield
Runefang
Other Tricksters Shard

Battle Wizard Lord
Level 4(shadow)
Scroll


Heroes:


Captain
Battle Standard Bearer
Full Plate Armour
Shield
Warhorse(Barding)
Biting Blade
Ironcurse Icon


Warrior Priest
Heavy Armour
Warhorse(Barding)
Enchanted Shield
Obsidian Lodestone


Core:

15 Knightly Orders
Inner Circle
Full Command
Ranger Standard

20 Halberdiers
Full Command

Special:

3 Cannon

5 Reiksguard Knights
Full Command
Gleaming Pennant

4 Demigryph Knights
Full Command
Banner of Eternal Flame


Rare:

Steam Tank



Total: 2398 points



List 2:

Lords:

Arch Lector
Great Weapon
Armour of Meteoric Iron(1+/6++)
Dawnstone

Battle Wizard Lord
Level 4(Shadow)


Heroes:

Captain
Battle Standard Bearer
Full Plate Armour
Shield

Warrior Priest
Heavy Armour
Shield
Dragonbane Helm

Warrior Priest
Heavy Armour
Warhorse(Barding)
Enchanted Shield


Core:

50 Halberdiers
Full Command

45 Halberdiers
Full Command


Special:

17 Greatswords
Full Command
Banner of discipline

3 Cannon

5 Reiksguard Knights
Banner+ Musician


Rare:

Steam Tank

Celestial Hurricanum


Total: 2397 points


I somewhat feel that the 2nd list reeks of cowardice, the inclusion of a 20 man infantry unit in both lists is because of the watchtower scenario, which caps the tower to 20 infantry models or 6 big models.
Time will tell... Sooner or later... Time will tell.
WH40k:
IG 5000pts[95% Painted]
Word Bearers 10000pts[89% Painted]
WHFB:
Empire 5000pts[95% Painted]

FYI, I'm Dutch, not Finnish, I just live there.

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Re: 2400 Empire for a Tournament, choosing between 2 lists.

Post by Hedonismbot » Mon Feb 23, 2015 10:55 am

Arnathos wrote:So this weekend our local warhammer group is organizing a tournament. It will be 2400 points and largely uncomped, the main restrictions are done through scenario's with Watchtower and Blood & Glory being very important sources for points, thus forcing a balanced list. Other Scenario's include meeting engagement, dawn attack and battle for the pass. So its a tournament without battle line!

I've been torn between 2 lists, the first is a radical(for me) cavalry heavy list. I have little experience with cavalry lists and have usually not been too succesful with them. The plus side is that it is fast to deploy and clean up and should have quick turns, because I am also a rules judge, this alone makes it very attractive as it gives me time to babysit other players and help them with rules issues(most of the people haven't played fantasy in years, or think they are still playing 6th edition.).

The 2nd list is a comfortable, tried and true infantry block list. I've run something similar many times and it has a good 80% win percentage. I've changed a few bells and whistles around it, but its mostly just loads of halberdiers with +1 to hit and tons of re-rolls.


List 1:

Lords:

Grand Master
Shield
Runefang
Other Tricksters Shard

Battle Wizard Lord
Level 4(shadow)
Scroll


Heroes:


Captain
Battle Standard Bearer
Full Plate Armour
Shield
Warhorse(Barding)
Biting Blade
Ironcurse Icon


Warrior Priest
Heavy Armour
Warhorse(Barding)
Enchanted Shield
Obsidian Lodestone


Core:

15 Knightly Orders
Inner Circle
Full Command
Ranger Standard

20 Halberdiers
Full Command

Special:

3 Cannon

5 Reiksguard Knights
Full Command
Gleaming Pennant
I don't much point in these guys. I guess they're being used as chaff, but I feel that there are cheaper choices in your special section.
4 Demigryph Knights
Full Command
Banner of Eternal Flame


Rare:

Steam Tank



Total: 2398 points
I love that knight bus, but against some armies, it won't be so great. Ogre gutstars, undead units with a blender lord, DE executioners, white lions, most of the chaos warriors army book and so on will beat that bus no sweat and in many cases you'll have to fight them. Should you not, if it were me, I'd simply shove the rest of my army down your throat asap and force that bus to fight me or have everything else get over run. And should the bus pop, it's pretty much game over. Even the Reiksguards and demigryph's may not hold anything up if they roll poorly and the foe has some static combat res.


List 2:

Lords:

Arch Lector
Great Weapon
Armour of Meteoric Iron(1+/6++)
Dawnstone

Battle Wizard Lord
Level 4(Shadow)
May want to find a way to get a dispell scroll on this guy somehow.

Heroes:

Captain
Battle Standard Bearer
Full Plate Armour
Shield

Warrior Priest
Heavy Armour
Shield
Dragonbane Helm

Warrior Priest
Heavy Armour
Warhorse(Barding)
Enchanted Shield


Core:

50 Halberdiers
Full Command

45 Halberdiers
Full Command


Special:

17 Greatswords
Full Command
Banner of discipline

3 Cannon

5 Reiksguard Knights
Banner+ Musician


Rare:

Steam Tank

Celestial Hurricanum


Total: 2397 points


I somewhat feel that the 2nd list reeks of cowardice, the inclusion of a 20 man infantry unit in both lists is because of the watchtower scenario, which caps the tower to 20 infantry models or 6 big models.
I feel that one unit of halberdiers is enough. From the countless times I've fought against them and seen them in action, they're still going to fold against anything that's half decent at fighting, buffs or not. If it were me, I'd drop one the units and swap em for a large bunch of inner circle knights for your mounted priest to hang out with. This way you could have 2 good fighting units in both the knights and greatswords.

Maybe even drop the reiksguard knights to add in some more of them and use the leftovers to add in some guys you don't need to care about, like huntsmen for scouting chaff and possibly set up in the watchtower and hold it till reinforcements arrive.

Greatswords could also be bulked up. In this style of list, these guys should be your main combat unit and with hatred and rerolls, aren't half bad either. If you can get them to around 30, fantastic.

Could also use an engineer with so many cannons on the board, but it's not as big of a deal Imo.
Personally, I'd go with list no. 2 as it's more flexible, but that's just me.
Aug 31st 2010 10:48 am 5267 and counting.

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Arnathos
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Re: 2400 Empire for a Tournament, choosing between 2 lists.

Post by Arnathos » Mon Feb 23, 2015 11:49 am

List 2 is the one I am more comfy with, 17 greatswords isn't all that great, but they will be a bunker and my unit to take the watchtower with.

I am still missing archers/huntsmen as well as pistoliers/outriders and flaggelants in my Empire collection, as my focus has been on 40k in recent years.

An engineer for a cannon is out of the question, as you need to declare his master of ballistics before you fire, so I'll just end up wasting it on the wrong cannon. I mostly took 3 cannon because I wanted to actually paint something new for the tournament.

Reiksguard have always served me well and have been star players every time I have brough them, stubborn with a re-roll, an extra banner for Blood & Glory, as well as packing quite a punch and very mobile.

I see your point in a scroll and some knights and stuff, With list 2 if I drop the reiksguard and a cannon I have more then enough points to change a Halberd unit into a unit of IC knights and maybe round out the greatswords as well as a scroll. Originally I wanted a unit of 20 models to be able to take the watchtower(max 20 infantry models holding it), but on the other hand, 30 turn into 20 after a single round of close combat.

I was liking list 1, not for its effectiveness, but because it is something new for me, I've had a lot of success with knight hordes in larger games and I've seen knight busses do well. I was hoping the shadow wizard and cannon would deal with gutstars for me, but it all depends on luck I guess.
Time will tell... Sooner or later... Time will tell.
WH40k:
IG 5000pts[95% Painted]
Word Bearers 10000pts[89% Painted]
WHFB:
Empire 5000pts[95% Painted]

FYI, I'm Dutch, not Finnish, I just live there.

coldsteel
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Re: 2400 Empire for a Tournament, choosing between 2 lists.

Post by coldsteel » Mon Feb 23, 2015 4:37 pm

No offense, but, if you're a rules judge, why are you playing? I would hate to have to wait on you to finish a turn to get a ruling...
Crucifiers (SM codex) (11881/703 PL)
Orks (3745/255 PL)
Astra Militarum (####/378 PL)
Fallen Crucifiers (CSM codex) (####/351 PL)
Khornate Daemons (####/65 PL)
Death Guard (2387/128 PL)
Primaris Marines (1099/60 PL)

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Re: 2400 Empire for a Tournament, choosing between 2 lists.

Post by Hedonismbot » Mon Feb 23, 2015 7:11 pm

Arnathos wrote:List 2 is the one I am more comfy with, 17 greatswords isn't all that great, but they will be a bunker and my unit to take the watchtower with.

I am still missing archers/huntsmen as well as pistoliers/outriders and flaggelants in my Empire collection, as my focus has been on 40k in recent years.

An engineer for a cannon is out of the question, as you need to declare his master of ballistics before you fire, so I'll just end up wasting it on the wrong cannon. I mostly took 3 cannon because I wanted to actually paint something new for the tournament.

Reiksguard have always served me well and have been star players every time I have brough them, stubborn with a re-roll, an extra banner for Blood & Glory, as well as packing quite a punch and very mobile.

I see your point in a scroll and some knights and stuff, With list 2 if I drop the reiksguard and a cannon I have more then enough points to change a Halberd unit into a unit of IC knights and maybe round out the greatswords as well as a scroll. Originally I wanted a unit of 20 models to be able to take the watchtower(max 20 infantry models holding it), but on the other hand, 30 turn into 20 after a single round of close combat.
Now that sounds good.
I was liking list 1, not for its effectiveness, but because it is something new for me, I've had a lot of success with knight hordes in larger games and I've seen knight busses do well. I was hoping the shadow wizard and cannon would deal with gutstars for me, but it all depends on luck I guess.
Don't always have to have your guys starting in the tower though. If the unit in question is either under strength or just isn't very strong they won't last very long anyways.

Everything looks quite balanced and you should be able to handle a variety of threats.
Aug 31st 2010 10:48 am 5267 and counting.

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Arnathos
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Location: Oulu, Finland.

Re: 2400 Empire for a Tournament, choosing between 2 lists.

Post by Arnathos » Tue Feb 24, 2015 1:40 am

Lords:

Arch Lector
Great Weapon
Armour of Meteoric Iron(1+/6++)
Dawnstone

Battle Wizard Lord
Level 4(Shadow)
Scroll


Heroes:

Captain
Battle Standard Bearer
Full Plate Armour
Shield

Warrior Priest
Heavy Armour
Shield
Dragonbane Helm

Warrior Priest
Heavy Armour
Warhorse(Barding)
Enchanted Shield


Core:

50 Halberdiers
Full Command

11 Knights
Inner Circle
Full Command
Banner of Swiftness


Special:

27 Greatswords
Full Command
Banner of discipline

3 Cannon




Rare:

Steam Tank

Celestial Hurricanum


So I updated the list a bit, I had a couple of points left and I went with a banner of swiftness on the knights, although I am considering the Gleaming pennant or Lichbane Pennant(because of ignores armour magic missiles). This does feel like a list that is almost too efficient though.

coldsteel wrote:No offense, but, if you're a rules judge, why are you playing? I would hate to have to wait on you to finish a turn to get a ruling...
Most of the disputes take like 5-10 seconds to resolve, I tend to answer immediately and we have other people that are knowledgable enough. Its not like I'll be judging rules for 40 people, we will be lucky if we get 10 players in total.
Time will tell... Sooner or later... Time will tell.
WH40k:
IG 5000pts[95% Painted]
Word Bearers 10000pts[89% Painted]
WHFB:
Empire 5000pts[95% Painted]

FYI, I'm Dutch, not Finnish, I just live there.

coldsteel
Lives, breathes, and eats MiniWarGaming
Posts: 1463
Joined: Sun Feb 03, 2013 5:53 pm
Location: Tulsa, OK

Re: 2400 Empire for a Tournament, choosing between 2 lists.

Post by coldsteel » Tue Feb 24, 2015 5:00 pm

Fair enough. :)
Crucifiers (SM codex) (11881/703 PL)
Orks (3745/255 PL)
Astra Militarum (####/378 PL)
Fallen Crucifiers (CSM codex) (####/351 PL)
Khornate Daemons (####/65 PL)
Death Guard (2387/128 PL)
Primaris Marines (1099/60 PL)

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