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 Post subject: Seraphim ?'s
PostPosted: Fri Aug 17, 2012 7:09 pm 
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I will be getting 10 of them for either 2 small units or 1 large unit.

But, should I get any Superiors and if so what weapon?

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 Post subject: Re: Seraphim ?'s
PostPosted: Fri Aug 17, 2012 9:33 pm 
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Superiors are mandatory for each unit.
I don't really think they need any equipment other than the melta bombs.

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 Post subject: Re: Seraphim ?'s
PostPosted: Sun Aug 19, 2012 7:32 am 
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Does anyone have a view on challenges?
I3 will probably swing late on a challenge, so you could go for a fist/axe to win challenges.
Or assume you may swing first or at the same time so powersword may be better.
I would assume you would really miss the extra attacks and the leadership if they bottled out of a challenge.
Then when they are empty handed, they can at least waste the enemy HQs time.


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 Post subject: Re: Seraphim ?'s
PostPosted: Sun Aug 19, 2012 3:40 pm 
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I don't think it'll be too much of an issue, and can be avoided by hiding your characters deep within the unit, and out of engagement. They won't get to attack, but they'll keep the leadership. Seraphim shouldn't be staying in combat all that long anyway.

If you do intend to fight it out though, you have to think of the meta. Melta bombs are the better vehicle hunting weapon, the evi is the better MC hunting weapon, and the Axe is the better heavy infantry hunting weapon. If you're fighting light infantry, her stock gear should be most cost effective.

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 Post subject: Re: Seraphim ?'s
PostPosted: Sun Aug 19, 2012 5:52 pm 
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Characters move first so they will be near the front, unless you mean refuse challenges.

Actually meltabombs and evi. compete at armour and monster killing, it depends on their foe which one best. Meltabombs probably coming out on top as they are cheaper and but then evi. is more useful when dealing with MEQ forgetting about challenges.


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 Post subject: Re: Seraphim ?'s
PostPosted: Sun Aug 19, 2012 8:22 pm 
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Superiors should pretty much be used to challenge chars who have the potential to do lots of damage to your squad. If your seraphim get into a combat you don't want to be in you're sole goal should be to survive to get the chance to hit & run to get out of there.

My last game a Seraphim Superior issued a challenge and soaked up 6 wounds from Abbadon allowing my squad to survive and get out of combat to shoot at something next turn. As for equiping them, Melta bombs wouldn't be a bad idea, if you got leftover points a power weapon aswell. Don't spend too many points on her as her goal should be to die so the rest of the squad can survive.


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 Post subject: Re: Seraphim ?'s
PostPosted: Sun Aug 19, 2012 11:49 pm 
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well its still up in the air as to whether or not the extra wounds get wasted in a challenge or if they do overflow to the unit. the way the people i play with treat it is they overflow to the unit.

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 Post subject: Re: Seraphim ?'s
PostPosted: Mon Aug 20, 2012 2:46 am 
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Jag wrote:
well its still up in the air as to whether or not the extra wounds get wasted in a challenge or if they do overflow to the unit. the way the people i play with treat it is they overflow to the unit.


Pg 64 2nd column bottem of pg in bold, only the challenger and the chllengee can strike blows against one another. If you not hitting the unit how can you wound the unit? Just b.c you do 3 wounds to a 1 wound model doesnt mean you didnt do a 1,2,3 combo and you die on the 1 hit.

Wounds dont matter at this point, the model only strike at the one other model no wound are being strriked at any other model. It is clear in bold.

Your overflow is like this example


XXXXXX

OOOOO
YYYYYY

XXXXX shoots at OOOOOO and does 27 wounds.... well they are bullets so 5 bullets out of 22 arnt used and the other unit is right in the LoS path so they overflow to the YYYYY unit.

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 Post subject: Re: Seraphim ?'s
PostPosted: Mon Aug 20, 2012 5:45 pm 
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jmaddux wrote:
Jag wrote:
well its still up in the air as to whether or not the extra wounds get wasted in a challenge or if they do overflow to the unit. the way the people i play with treat it is they overflow to the unit.
only the challenger and the challengee can strike blows against one another. If you not hitting the unit how can you wound the unit? Just b.c you do 3 wounds to a 1 wound model doesnt mean you didnt do a 1,2,3 combo and you die on the 1 hit.
actually, there is no implication of what you say from that statement. it simply says no one else may strike people in the challenge, but it never says you cant strike out of the challenge. in fact, the only thing that prevents you from striking other units first is from the way it is stated that you must be base to base with the challenge target so they would always receive first allocation.

on a side note, you'll notice the paragraph you took that from further explains how other units may not strike people in challenges, but not once mentions whether or not the people in the challenge can strike blows out of it.

if it was to be stating what you said it would be written: "the challenger and challengee can only strike blows against one another and no one else may strike them." but its only got the second half of that statement in the rulebook, the first half is missing.
jmaddux wrote:
Your overflow is like this example


XXXXXX

OOOOO
YYYYYY

XXXXX shoots at OOOOOO and does 27 wounds.... well they are bullets so 5 bullets out of 22 arnt used and the other unit is right in the LoS path so they overflow to the YYYYY unit.

the overflow i'm saying is more in the case of 1 unit and it happens to have different models in it. it doesn't matter if they are 2 different target, such as Sgt or trooper, they are all one unit and therefore take the wounds together.

on a side note, your comparison to shooting does not follow since shooting and combat are 2 different things. which in that case, you could have 2 units assaulted against one and that one could choose to allocate over both units.

the fact of the matter is, the rulebook does not say they are separate combats or that you cannot attack units you are in base to base with outside the challenge. it simply says that other units cant strike the people in the challenge.

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 Post subject: Re: Seraphim ?'s
PostPosted: Mon Aug 20, 2012 7:42 pm 
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Jag wrote:
jmaddux wrote:
Jag wrote:
well its still up in the air as to whether or not the extra wounds get wasted in a challenge or if they do overflow to the unit. the way the people i play with treat it is they overflow to the unit.
only the challenger and the challengee can strike blows against one another. If you not hitting the unit how can you wound the unit? Just b.c you do 3 wounds to a 1 wound model doesnt mean you didnt do a 1,2,3 combo and you die on the 1 hit.


actually, there is no implication of what you say from that statement. it simply says no one else may strike people in the challenge, but it never says you cant strike out of the challenge. in fact, the only thing that prevents you from striking other units first is from the way it is stated that you must be base to base with the challenge target so they would always receive first allocation.



It does say you cant strike blows to anyone else IT DOES SAY IT IN BOLD!

Again "only the challenger and the challengee can strike blows against one another" in that part it say that the challenge models can only hit each other, then after that it says, wounds from the Non-challengers cant hit the challengers, that is 100% clear, Unit cant do wounds to the Challengers, the Challengers cant even hit the unit (so therefore cant wound them either).

If you can only HIT 1 model and you are made to only HIT one model and there is no other way to hit a different model, then how can you wound a model you didnt hit?

There are players out there that find in the book where the writers werent "consistent" in how they explain the rules and use that "inconsistency" to bend the rules.

If GW wanted wounds to "overflow" they would have said it in the book, and explaind that the challengers wounds still hit the rest of the unit.

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 Post subject: Re: Seraphim ?'s
PostPosted: Mon Aug 20, 2012 7:45 pm 
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Madcat87 wrote:
Superiors should pretty much be used to challenge chars who have the potential to do lots of damage to your squad. If your seraphim get into a combat you don't want to be in you're sole goal should be to survive to get the chance to hit & run to get out of there.

My last game a Seraphim Superior issued a challenge and soaked up 6 wounds from Abbadon allowing my squad to survive and get out of combat to shoot at something next turn. As for equiping them, Melta bombs wouldn't be a bad idea, if you got leftover points a power weapon aswell. Don't spend too many points on her as her goal should be to die so the rest of the squad can survive.


I like this!

Then If I will be taking wounds to get away would I even want to waste the points on an Upgrade weapon?
Or should I think about it the other way...
Sense I am in Challenges then I might as well add a good weapon so I can at least do a couple wounds before I hit and run?

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 Post subject: Re: Seraphim ?'s
PostPosted: Tue Aug 21, 2012 12:28 am 
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jmaddux wrote:
It does say you cant strike blows to anyone else IT DOES SAY IT IN BOLD!

Again "only the challenger and the challengee can strike blows against one another" in that part it say that the challenge models can only hit each other, then after that it says, wounds from the Non-challengers cant hit the challengers, that is 100% clear, Unit cant do wounds to the Challengers, the Challengers cant even hit the unit (so therefore cant wound them either).
again, you defend my point due to failure in reading comprehension and pointing to the single line that defends my statement. see in english we have what is called syntax, which basically means word order. the words for what you want it to say are out of order.

what it says: "only the challenger and challengee can strike one another" meaning no one else can hit them but they are not required to hit each other nor are they restricted from hitting others.

what you think it says: "the challenger and challengee can only strike one another" which means they can only hit the other person in the challenge.

the word placement of the word only is key. in its current placement it means what i said; in the fixed placement i posted it means what you said. you may want to consider the english languages rules into the factor when you start to discuss the nuances of the phrasing of something.

now i personally can see the uses either way for this to prevent a single powerhouse model from beating down a small group or allowing that power house model to prevent vast amounts of saves from being taken, but in the end we are talking about the wording of the rules, not what would be more balanced.

jmaddux wrote:
I like this!

Then If I will be taking wounds to get away would I even want to waste the points on an Upgrade weapon?
Or should I think about it the other way...
Sense I am in Challenges then I might as well add a good weapon so I can at least do a couple wounds before I hit and run?
it depends obviously on how your friends you play with treat the rule on whether or not it works that way. and secondly on whether or not the target has something to reduce speed of attacks. like if you field a power sword on your superior and they have a power fist or hammer, then you have a good chance of cutting through their armor if they only have a 3+ save before they get the blows off, but if they arent restricted on speed or are 2+ armor save most attacks will but futile.

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 Post subject: Re: Seraphim ?'s
PostPosted: Tue Aug 21, 2012 3:10 am 
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What you are saying is (If this is right)

X=Challenger
O=Cgallegnee
x=Unit
o=unit

X is the only model that can hit O, O is the only model that can hit X (therefore x and o can not hit X and O) but X and O can still hit x and o

But at the end of "only the challenger and the challengee can strike blows against one another" One Another also is Each Other.

blows against One Another "NOT" To Others.
It does say they are the only ones that can hit them but it doesnt say they still can hit other, it is against one another. Can only hit each otehr means.... only each other not others.

Also.... This is the HUGE part of it.

Your CH WS/S/T/Sv may different from the other CH WS/T/S/Sv so when you roll your doing your rolls on that stat line and Armor SV by having Overflow wounds you are breaking the rules by not using that units WS/S/T/Sv

There is Huge rules about how multi charge, multi armor saves and multi unit CC works.... and it doesnt allow ANYWEHRE to use ones model WS/S/T/Sv wounds to be use on a Different model with complete! different WS/S/T/Sv.

Example: Remember this is an example and my not have any unit stats like this, it is an easy way to say what I mean.

Charater 1 His Unit
WS/S/T/Sv WS/S/T/Sv
2/2/2/4+ 5/5/5/5+

Character 2 (he is hitting charater 1)
WS/S/T/Sv
5/5/5/2+

Ch2 needs 3+ to hit and 2+ to wound on Ch1,
But if the Ch2 was to hit the Unit the stats wound be 4+ to hit and 4+ to wound
Lets say Ch2 gets 6 Attacks, on the Ch1 he wound get 4 hits and 3 wounds but against the unit it wound be 3 hits and 1.5 wounds, that is Have the wounds it would have rolled.
So have the wounds wouldnt even hit the unit normally anyways.

B.c of this that is why there are lots and lots of rules about who can hit who in CC (and when)

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Last edited by jmaddux on Tue Aug 21, 2012 4:03 am, edited 3 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Seraphim ?'s
PostPosted: Tue Aug 21, 2012 3:53 am 
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well, there are 2 things to keep in context, since you have noticed the wording supports my interpretation of the statement. the precision strike rule would still apply to a character in a dual, that is to say that a roll of 6 allows you to allocate to whatever model you want. and the second is that it mentions that the challenge is considered into the results of a combat and therefore is not separate from it.

as for the note on the ws/t/sv rules (str doesn't come in here actually as the model striking is the same in all the attacks), you would simply handle it how you would the combat if the 2 characters weren't locked in combat. in fact, because you brought it up, lets say a we are in a combat that has 2 units that contain 2 different ws/t/sv models in each, how do you handle the wounds, without a challenge going on? you would take the average ws/t of the group, which btw, the rules for challenges in no way say that this rule does not apply to be ready to see those values lowered. and you would roll one at a time for the saves.

on a side note, it would most likely be a benefit to roll in the fashion you suggested as most characters have higher ws/t/sv values than the others.

probably the best argument the other way for this is that it says just above the line you repeated, "For the duration of the challenge, these two models are considered to be in base contact only with each other." which would restrict the standard allocation rules and only allow you to allocate to models within 2" of the character if it overflowed, as per standard rules. it definitely shows that in the spirit of the rule you wouldn't be able to overflow, but once again it leaves it open as it never says you can't allocate out of the challenge nor does it say you can't precision strike.

this is one of those things they need to clear up in an faq as the writing in the text implies it can be overflown, but it has a feeling that it could be the other way.

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 Post subject: Re: Seraphim ?'s
PostPosted: Wed Aug 22, 2012 8:15 am 
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RAW clearly allow some overflow of wounds.

It is one of the rare cases where most tournaments all agree it is badly written, that it will FAQed to remove the overflow wounds and to have tournaments without the overflow.

This would require an amendment or errata for their nice newly printed rulebook. That would be the only reason for not changing it, as it is it would need some clarification as it is badly worded anyway.


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