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 Post subject: Always strikes first
PostPosted: Tue Apr 17, 2012 11:43 pm 
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Say a unit of Swordmasters gets within 6 inches of my thundertusk, do they have always strikes last or first or does it just go to initiative

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 Post subject: Re: Always strikes first
PostPosted: Wed Apr 18, 2012 12:10 am 
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Well I reckon the models(!) within 6'' of your thundertusk would strike last. They lose their ASF and they are still armed with great weapons. The FAQ says the elven ASF works with great weapons but not that their great weapons do not ASL.

So yeah no asf=normal initiative order=normal great weapons. That is how I see it anyway.

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 Post subject: Re: Always strikes first
PostPosted: Wed Apr 18, 2012 3:04 am 
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Thundertusk nullifies high elves asf from the models who are within 6'' from the thundertusk, so they strike with their normal initiative value because their asf and that asl ability nullify each other so Arnathos is correct.
This is how i saw it as well and i hope this answers your question.

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 Post subject: Re: Always strikes first
PostPosted: Wed Apr 18, 2012 3:45 am 
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Stanfar wrote:
Thundertusk nullifies high elves asf from the models who are within 6'' from the thundertusk, so they strike with their normal initiative value because their asf and that asl ability nullify each other so Arnathos is correct.
This is how i saw it as well and i hope this answers your question.

Should probably read Arnathos' post more carefully. You're actually disagreeing with him. Though I'd agree with Stanfar personally here.

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 Post subject: Re: Always strikes first
PostPosted: Wed Apr 18, 2012 4:18 am 
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Somewhat torn tbh. I am leaning towards they go last. The ASL rule from the thundertusk nullifies the high elf rule, and since they are still using great weapons, they would strike last. You take away the rule that makes them go first no matter what, your still left with the weapons you use, which makes you go last. Seems logical to me.

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 Post subject: Re: Always strikes first
PostPosted: Wed Apr 18, 2012 8:17 am 
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If the Thurdertusk takes away ASF, then it's strikes last for swordmasters. Their rule only allows them to use their ASF regardless of weapon. If they don't have it at all, then it can't be applied to the weapon they're wielding, so they must use the default weapon rules of ASL.

If the thundertusk grants ASL instead of taking away ASF, then it's a bit dicier, but I still lean towards striking last. Having both ASF and ASL says specifically they cancel each other out and neither applies. So if the thundertusk grants ASL to them, that should immediately nullify their ASF. And like I said above, Speed of Asuryan only grants ASF regarless of weapon, so if they lose the ASF aspect of it, then the rest is gone too, so now you don't ignore the ASL from the great weapon.

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 Post subject: Re: Always strikes first
PostPosted: Wed Apr 18, 2012 8:29 am 
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The High Elves strike in Initative Order.

They effectively cancel each other out. So no re-rolls to hit v my I2 Ogres :D assuming I can find someone to drag me long enough way from Warmachine to use them


Last edited by gobbo7603 on Wed Apr 18, 2012 8:33 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Always strikes first
PostPosted: Wed Apr 18, 2012 8:33 am 
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That is a tough one. You could argue that Speed of Asuryan might give High Elves ASF... even with Great Weapons, but if the Thundertusk takes away ASF, there is nothing in there that says High Elves ignore the ASL rule for Great Weapons if the loose the ASF. I think it is an all or nothing. I can see it being argued that Great Weapons would strike at Initiative, but I do not see it that way.

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 Post subject: Re: Always strikes first
PostPosted: Wed Apr 18, 2012 8:37 am 
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The Thundertusk gives all enemy models with 6" Always Strike Last. It doesn't take away Always Strike First.


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 Post subject: Re: Always strikes first
PostPosted: Wed Apr 18, 2012 9:12 am 
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Right, but normally if you have ASF and ASL they cancel out a you strike by Initiative. The question is Speed of Asuryan lets High Elves have ASF with Great Weapons that have ASL and the Sword Masters have Great Weapons, so would the would the Sword Masters strike at Initiative with the Great Weapons do to Speed of Asuryan or would it ASL take over now that they have are striking at Initiative (no longer having ASF) making them strike last?

I would say the Great Weapon is dragging them down as the Speed of Asuryan only helps for Great Weapons when the High Elves have ASF... If they lose ASF then the Great Weapon will make them ASL.

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 Post subject: Re: Always strikes first
PostPosted: Wed Apr 18, 2012 9:45 am 
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I agree. The great weapons make them slow and strike last.

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 Post subject: Re: Always strikes first
PostPosted: Wed Apr 18, 2012 10:40 am 
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Thunder tusks cancel out ASF by adding ASL, that leaves your striking at initiative order...but you are still using great weapons, so you should be striking last. Anyone checked the FAQ XD

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 Post subject: Re: Always strikes first
PostPosted: Wed Apr 18, 2012 10:49 am 
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Page 66 – Special Rules, What Special Rules Does It Have
Change “[...]the effects of multiple special rules[...]” to
“[...]the effects of different special rules[...]”Add “However,
unless otherwise stated, a model gains no additional benefit
from having the same special rule multiple times.” to the end of
the first paragraph

So they would only get the ASL applied once.


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 Post subject: Re: Always strikes first
PostPosted: Wed Apr 18, 2012 10:56 am 
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Did some research myself. They would strike in initiative order. ASL cant stack, so you only apply it once. As a result, swordmasters would hit at initiative order, but would not get the reroll to hit for being I6.

Quick solution to sword masters:

Leadbelchers TO THE FACE!

That should do nicely.

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 Post subject: Re: Always strikes first
PostPosted: Wed Apr 18, 2012 11:01 am 
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Azeebo wrote:
Leadbelchers TO THE FACE!


Damn straight. :D


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