Always strikes first

Discuss all you want about the Warhammer game that started it all...
User avatar
Friendlyfire21
MiniWarGaming Regular
Posts: 94
Joined: Fri Jun 24, 2011 4:54 pm

Always strikes first

Postby Friendlyfire21 » Wed Apr 18, 2012 12:43 am

Say a unit of Swordmasters gets within 6 inches of my thundertusk, do they have always strikes last or first or does it just go to initiative
WAAAAAAAAAAAGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGHHHHHHHHHHHH

User avatar
Arnathos
MiniWarGaming Grand Marshall
Posts: 4216
Joined: Sun Dec 04, 2011 1:08 pm
Ribbons Earned: Has Completed 5 Painting PledgesHas Completed 10 Painting PledgesHas Completed 25 Painting PledgesHas Completed 50 Painting PledgesWon a Painting Deathmatch Headline EventTook part in a Painting Deathmatch Headline EventWon a Painting Deathmatch Side ChallengeCompleted a Painting Deathmatch Side Challenge EntryPlaced First with a 'Mini of the Month' EntryCompleted a 'Mini of the Month' Entry
Location: Oulu, Finland.

Re: Always strikes first

Postby Arnathos » Wed Apr 18, 2012 1:10 am

Well I reckon the models(!) within 6'' of your thundertusk would strike last. They lose their ASF and they are still armed with great weapons. The FAQ says the elven ASF works with great weapons but not that their great weapons do not ASL.

So yeah no asf=normal initiative order=normal great weapons. That is how I see it anyway.
Time will tell... Sooner or later... Time will tell.
WH40k:
IG 5000pts[95% Painted]
Word Bearers 9500pts[70% Painted]
WHFB:
Empire 5000pts[95% Painted]

FYI, I'm Dutch, not Finnish, I just live there.

User avatar
Stanfar
MiniWarGaming Crazed Zealot
Posts: 589
Joined: Tue Mar 27, 2012 11:28 am
Ribbons Earned: Won a Painting Deathmatch Side ChallengeCompleted a Painting Deathmatch Side Challenge EntryCompleted a 'Mini of the Month' Entry

Re: Always strikes first

Postby Stanfar » Wed Apr 18, 2012 4:04 am

Thundertusk nullifies high elves asf from the models who are within 6'' from the thundertusk, so they strike with their normal initiative value because their asf and that asl ability nullify each other so Arnathos is correct.
This is how i saw it as well and i hope this answers your question.
Game scores 2016
40k 4/0/5
Fantasy 2/0/1

Let's have a fun games or die in cheese! :D

User avatar
Zero
Epic MiniWarGaming Poster, 'nuff said
Posts: 7740
Joined: Sat Nov 28, 2009 4:41 am
Location: Wollongong, Australia

Re: Always strikes first

Postby Zero » Wed Apr 18, 2012 4:45 am

Stanfar wrote:Thundertusk nullifies high elves asf from the models who are within 6'' from the thundertusk, so they strike with their normal initiative value because their asf and that asl ability nullify each other so Arnathos is correct.
This is how i saw it as well and i hope this answers your question.

Should probably read Arnathos' post more carefully. You're actually disagreeing with him. Though I'd agree with Stanfar personally here.
What matters creative endless toil
When, at a snatch, oblivion ends the coil?

My awesome blog of awesomeness.

User avatar
Azeebo
Epic MiniWarGaming Poster, 'nuff said
Posts: 9412
Joined: Fri Apr 03, 2009 4:28 pm
Location: Im on your Terra sitting on your Throne

Re: Always strikes first

Postby Azeebo » Wed Apr 18, 2012 5:18 am

Somewhat torn tbh. I am leaning towards they go last. The ASL rule from the thundertusk nullifies the high elf rule, and since they are still using great weapons, they would strike last. You take away the rule that makes them go first no matter what, your still left with the weapons you use, which makes you go last. Seems logical to me.
HammerOfTheEmperor - Common users must take Azeebo in small doses, lest they get overwhelmed by his awesomeness

DrMasenkoSauce - You're the master of 40k. Everything you say in the matter is 100% correct

Rangrok1k - Azeebo...I love you

User avatar
Badger
MiniWarGaming Zealot
Posts: 440
Joined: Thu Jan 20, 2011 12:23 pm
Location: Niagara Falls

Re: Always strikes first

Postby Badger » Wed Apr 18, 2012 9:17 am

If the Thurdertusk takes away ASF, then it's strikes last for swordmasters. Their rule only allows them to use their ASF regardless of weapon. If they don't have it at all, then it can't be applied to the weapon they're wielding, so they must use the default weapon rules of ASL.

If the thundertusk grants ASL instead of taking away ASF, then it's a bit dicier, but I still lean towards striking last. Having both ASF and ASL says specifically they cancel each other out and neither applies. So if the thundertusk grants ASL to them, that should immediately nullify their ASF. And like I said above, Speed of Asuryan only grants ASF regarless of weapon, so if they lose the ASF aspect of it, then the rest is gone too, so now you don't ignore the ASL from the great weapon.
"Men follow courage, not treachery."

gobbo7603
MiniWarGaming Zealot
Posts: 241
Joined: Thu Nov 03, 2011 11:09 am
Location: Lancashire, UK

Re: Always strikes first

Postby gobbo7603 » Wed Apr 18, 2012 9:29 am

The High Elves strike in Initative Order.

They effectively cancel each other out. So no re-rolls to hit v my I2 Ogres :D assuming I can find someone to drag me long enough way from Warmachine to use them
Last edited by gobbo7603 on Wed Apr 18, 2012 9:33 am, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
Todda
Epic MiniWarGaming Poster, 'nuff said
Posts: 7706
Joined: Mon Oct 19, 2009 9:25 pm

Re: Always strikes first

Postby Todda » Wed Apr 18, 2012 9:33 am

That is a tough one. You could argue that Speed of Asuryan might give High Elves ASF... even with Great Weapons, but if the Thundertusk takes away ASF, there is nothing in there that says High Elves ignore the ASL rule for Great Weapons if the loose the ASF. I think it is an all or nothing. I can see it being argued that Great Weapons would strike at Initiative, but I do not see it that way.
I made the move to professionally painting 3 years ago. I paint a good mix between speed and quality. This keeps prices low, like a typical 2K 40k army is under $500.

My painting services:https://www.facebook.com/toddabbottpainting

gobbo7603
MiniWarGaming Zealot
Posts: 241
Joined: Thu Nov 03, 2011 11:09 am
Location: Lancashire, UK

Re: Always strikes first

Postby gobbo7603 » Wed Apr 18, 2012 9:37 am

The Thundertusk gives all enemy models with 6" Always Strike Last. It doesn't take away Always Strike First.

User avatar
Todda
Epic MiniWarGaming Poster, 'nuff said
Posts: 7706
Joined: Mon Oct 19, 2009 9:25 pm

Re: Always strikes first

Postby Todda » Wed Apr 18, 2012 10:12 am

Right, but normally if you have ASF and ASL they cancel out a you strike by Initiative. The question is Speed of Asuryan lets High Elves have ASF with Great Weapons that have ASL and the Sword Masters have Great Weapons, so would the would the Sword Masters strike at Initiative with the Great Weapons do to Speed of Asuryan or would it ASL take over now that they have are striking at Initiative (no longer having ASF) making them strike last?

I would say the Great Weapon is dragging them down as the Speed of Asuryan only helps for Great Weapons when the High Elves have ASF... If they lose ASF then the Great Weapon will make them ASL.
I made the move to professionally painting 3 years ago. I paint a good mix between speed and quality. This keeps prices low, like a typical 2K 40k army is under $500.

My painting services:https://www.facebook.com/toddabbottpainting

User avatar
Bigfi
MiniWarGaming Crazed Zealot
Posts: 915
Joined: Tue Jun 08, 2010 6:36 pm
Location: Niagara Falls Ontario

Re: Always strikes first

Postby Bigfi » Wed Apr 18, 2012 10:45 am

I agree. The great weapons make them slow and strike last.
fool me once shame on me, fool me twice... BLOOD FOR THE BLOOD GOD!
Cryx, Circle, CSM, and BA armies

User avatar
Azeebo
Epic MiniWarGaming Poster, 'nuff said
Posts: 9412
Joined: Fri Apr 03, 2009 4:28 pm
Location: Im on your Terra sitting on your Throne

Re: Always strikes first

Postby Azeebo » Wed Apr 18, 2012 11:40 am

Thunder tusks cancel out ASF by adding ASL, that leaves your striking at initiative order...but you are still using great weapons, so you should be striking last. Anyone checked the FAQ XD
HammerOfTheEmperor - Common users must take Azeebo in small doses, lest they get overwhelmed by his awesomeness

DrMasenkoSauce - You're the master of 40k. Everything you say in the matter is 100% correct

Rangrok1k - Azeebo...I love you

gobbo7603
MiniWarGaming Zealot
Posts: 241
Joined: Thu Nov 03, 2011 11:09 am
Location: Lancashire, UK

Re: Always strikes first

Postby gobbo7603 » Wed Apr 18, 2012 11:49 am

Page 66 – Special Rules, What Special Rules Does It Have
Change “[...]the effects of multiple special rules[...]” to
“[...]the effects of different special rules[...]”Add “However,
unless otherwise stated, a model gains no additional benefit
from having the same special rule multiple times.” to the end of
the first paragraph

So they would only get the ASL applied once.

User avatar
Azeebo
Epic MiniWarGaming Poster, 'nuff said
Posts: 9412
Joined: Fri Apr 03, 2009 4:28 pm
Location: Im on your Terra sitting on your Throne

Re: Always strikes first

Postby Azeebo » Wed Apr 18, 2012 11:56 am

Did some research myself. They would strike in initiative order. ASL cant stack, so you only apply it once. As a result, swordmasters would hit at initiative order, but would not get the reroll to hit for being I6.

Quick solution to sword masters:

Leadbelchers TO THE FACE!

That should do nicely.
HammerOfTheEmperor - Common users must take Azeebo in small doses, lest they get overwhelmed by his awesomeness

DrMasenkoSauce - You're the master of 40k. Everything you say in the matter is 100% correct

Rangrok1k - Azeebo...I love you

gobbo7603
MiniWarGaming Zealot
Posts: 241
Joined: Thu Nov 03, 2011 11:09 am
Location: Lancashire, UK

Re: Always strikes first

Postby gobbo7603 » Wed Apr 18, 2012 12:01 pm

Azeebo wrote:Leadbelchers TO THE FACE!


Damn straight. :D


Return to “Warhammer Fantasy”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 2 guests