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PostPosted: Mon Mar 19, 2012 3:22 am 
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You want to fire a missile that shoots a gun? As boss as that sounds, it's not very efficient. Even if that's how you wanted it to work, giving it a sabot would be wasteful, increasing the diameter and weight of the entire missile, requiring more propellant. On Lexicanum for the Krak missiles, it states they operate off the shaped charge principles we use today. It also states on lexicanum that they are similar to Imperial HKM's.

Based off your idea, it would be neat to have a micro-drone carrier of sorts, that shoots the drones as weapons. Maybe that'll be the next heavy 20, lol. The micro drones fly out to the target and discharge a number of shots before returning. Same as pulse pistols, but maybe 36" range, and ignores cover (since the drones get really close)

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PostPosted: Mon Mar 19, 2012 3:34 am 
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Corpsey wrote:
You want to fire a missile that shoots a gun? As boss as that sounds, it's not very efficient. Even if that's how you wanted it to work, giving it a sabot would be wasteful, increasing the diameter and weight of the entire missile, requiring more propellant. On Lexicanum for the Krak missiles, it states they operate off the shaped charge principles we use today. It also states on lexicanum that they are similar to Imperial HKM's.
Hmm, I wasn't aware there was specific fluff on the Seeker Missiles. Changed, it shall be.

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Based off your idea, it would be neat to have a micro-drone carrier of sorts, that shoots the drones as weapons. Maybe that'll be the next heavy 20, lol. The micro drones fly out to the target and discharge a number of shots before returning. Same as pulse pistols, but maybe 36" range, and ignores cover (since the drones get really close)
Interesting idea, but where to put it in terms of the force organisation chart. Heavies, most likely, though I don't see it getting much playtime when it has to compete with Hammerheads, New Skyrays and Broadsides. Fast Attack perhaps, a (slower) upgrade of the Piranha, like a mobile mortar carrier that shoots microdrones. Microdrones armed with explosive charges have a small basis in fluff for instance, via Fire Warrior, though 40k novels do remain dubious for the purposes of canon.

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PostPosted: Mon Mar 19, 2012 3:41 am 
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Those explosive micro drones sounds more like smart mortar bombs/micro-missiles than actual drones.

I recently wondered why people haven't mounted an array of mortars, such as the hedgehog anti-submarine weapons on land based vehicles.

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PostPosted: Mon Mar 19, 2012 4:18 am 
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Corpsey wrote:
Those explosive micro drones sounds more like smart mortar bombs/micro-missiles than actual drones.

I recently wondered why people haven't mounted an array of mortars, such as the hedgehog anti-submarine weapons on land based vehicles.

Fire Warrior has the main character using them via his helmet to direct the drone into a firing position for an explosion, so they're like mini-cruise missiles I guess. That sort of tech could easily be used to launch minidrones with pulse pistols in them or markerlights for that matter.

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PostPosted: Sun Mar 25, 2012 11:42 am 
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Hi there. Just found your fandex and I must say I like it alot. I might be inclined to reduce the bs of the hammer head back to 4. A tank that always hits on twos without markerlight support is a bit powerful. Other than that thanks for making ethereals worth taking.

Chris


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 26, 2012 3:36 am 
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lowie0001 wrote:
Hi there. Just found your fandex and I must say I like it alot. I might be inclined to reduce the bs of the hammer head back to 4. A tank that always hits on twos without markerlight support is a bit powerful. Other than that thanks for making ethereals worth taking.

Chris

I'll add it to the math-hammering considerations, cheers for responding!

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PostPosted: Mon Mar 26, 2012 7:45 am 
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need to clarify the 2 template blast for the skyray and how it can be deployed...is it a barrage or can it be placed like a hellhounds. :P The enemy approaching rule is pretty powerful as anything that gets close to a tau army is gonna have the tau army firing at it for free on a 33% chance.maybe make it a special rule an ethereal can grant allied infantry units within 6" once per turn and reduce the range for the test to 6" for the enemy to move into range. going to be playtesting at local club to see how it stacks up against the current bandwagon armies also make this vs deep strike too :P it think that might make things a bit more balanced. also if they chose to fall back how would they move? 2d6" or d6 or 6".

thanks


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 26, 2012 8:25 am 
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lowie0001 wrote:
need to clarify the 2 template blast for the skyray and how it can be deployed...is it a barrage or can it be placed like a hellhounds. :P The enemy approaching rule is pretty powerful as anything that gets close to a tau army is gonna have the tau army firing at it for free on a 33% chance.maybe make it a special rule an ethereal can grant allied infantry units within 6" once per turn and reduce the range for the test to 6" for the enemy to move into range. going to be playtesting at local club to see how it stacks up against the current bandwagon armies also make this vs deep strike too :P it think that might make things a bit more balanced. also if they chose to fall back how would they move? 2d6" or d6 or 6".

thanks


The enemy closing rule is on a 33% chance BEFORE rolling to hit, rolling to wound, cover-saves and armour saves (and after that, perhaps even feel no pain/WBB). Not to mention the proximity of the enemy at that point will effectively mean a charge if the Tau unit fails to cause the enemy to retreat. If playtesting reveals that it's seriously broken, I may lower the probability of successfully using the rule further.

The rule doesn't affect deepstriking units, only ones that move directly into the rule's radius of effect. That's to simulate the surprise of an enemy appearing in the midst of the Tau formation by whatever means, drop-pod, underground tunnel etc.

The rule is designed to simulate what would actually happen if people charged a firing line, and to give the Tau more tactical flexibility, as well as forcing opponents to come up with tactics more complicated than "Run at the Tau until you catch them" which is actually the subject of a lot of Tau fluff. It'll allow Tau armies to be far more aggressive, while maintaining their close combat suckishness.

A tip to the people playing against you, remember that the rule can only be used against one unit per turn, so crowd the intended target with multiple squads and you'll get there, or soften up the Tau from range to a certain extent before charging.

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PostPosted: Mon Mar 26, 2012 10:00 pm 
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Enemy closing in... typically I dont really care about people assaulting and killing off a firewarrior squad or something. What I don't like is how a single marine can do it with bolt pistol and combat knife into a whole squad of firewarriors.

My suggestion would be that you can forfeit your mele combat to shoot at the charging enemy before they reach you, counting it as firing 6 inches away regardless from where the enemy came from. You automatically lose combat if an enemy survives regardless of wounds inflicted but cannot be swept by infantry/walkers/monstrous creatures or regroup afterward. A squad falling back does not posess this rule.
This is quite just making sure our defenses last their turn then fold. Give an etheral a special ruling that he can restore the morale of one such falling back squad per turn if they did not leave the field yet.
I have to add that jump infanty, bikes, jetpack infantry, jetbikes, cavalry and beasts can still sweep our units... I just find those who move at the same speed should not be able to catch the few they did not kill as they were already running away.


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 27, 2012 1:31 am 
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potato32 wrote:
Enemy closing in... typically I dont really care about people assaulting and killing off a firewarrior squad or something. What I don't like is how a single marine can do it with bolt pistol and combat knife into a whole squad of firewarriors.

My suggestion would be that you can forfeit your mele combat to shoot at the charging enemy before they reach you, counting it as firing 6 inches away regardless from where the enemy came from. You automatically lose combat if an enemy survives regardless of wounds inflicted but cannot be swept by infantry/walkers/monstrous creatures or regroup afterward. A squad falling back does not posess this rule.
This is quite just making sure our defenses last their turn then fold. Give an etheral a special ruling that he can restore the morale of one such falling back squad per turn if they did not leave the field yet.
I have to add that jump infanty, bikes, jetpack infantry, jetbikes, cavalry and beasts can still sweep our units... I just find those who move at the same speed should not be able to catch the few they did not kill as they were already running away.
That seems more of a dying breath desperation move than any sort of tactical thing, which I don't think suits the Tau style really. It seems to me that they'd concentrate their firepower on closing threats a lot sooner than that.

Not to mention that it would greatly increase Tau assault capability, because for Fire Warriors you're effectively replacing one WS2 S3 attack with two BS3 S5 attacks, which is considerably more effective, or in the case of battlesuits, a few S5 attacks for any number of possible weapon options, including two plasma shots which are the effective equivalent of a power weapon if they can be used in close combat.

The assault and shooting phases have to be kept separate. That's why the retaliatory fire only applies to movement, not assaults, though I have to edit out consolidation moves in the next draft.

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PostPosted: Tue Mar 27, 2012 2:19 pm 
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There are more broken rules than exchanging your mele attacks for ranged ones before your forces running away if there's still something moving. I have to admit the accuracy/strength/ap/shots amount should be tweaked. Heck it could be a pistol shot.
I fail to imagine warriors untrained in mele combat and taught to devalue it beyond all else not fire their gun when about to get into mele before getting the hell out.


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 27, 2012 3:53 pm 
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potato32 wrote:
I fail to imagine warriors untrained in mele combat and taught to devalue it beyond all else not fire their gun when about to get into mele before getting the hell out.
Indeed, but they'd fire a lot earlier than just before the enemy is about to clobber them is my point. That's the point of ranged combat to begin with, kill your enemies at a distance and stop them from getting close without taking casualties.

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PostPosted: Wed Mar 28, 2012 1:43 am 
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Basically... shooting before the assault phase? Woudn't that make the Tau even deadlier than my alternative? At least they can minimize out of sequence fire by NOT multiassaulting( a major plus for Tau already). The point of that rule is to make up for our mele without forgetting we are a shooty army. There's nothing wrong in being well trained at point blank shots.


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PostPosted: Fri Mar 30, 2012 11:32 am 
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Alright, I've done some mathhammer and simulations on Enemy Closing.

While I feel it's an accurate representation of fluff, and is reasonably well balanced, it will ANNIHILATE unskilled players and it will probably frustrate decent players as well. I firmly believe that playing against Tau should be fun as well as playing as Tau, and this sorta goes against that principle.

Furthermore, the Tau shooting in the enemy Shooting Phases slows the game down in a big way, which breaks the flow of the game to a large extent.

So instead, all Tau non-vehicle units with Assault/Rapid Fire weapons of Strength 7 or lower will gain an extra shot in their own shooting phase if the enemy targeted is within 12''. They'll need to roll to hit and wound as normal.

I feel this achieves the objective of the rule nicely, and although it means the enemy can move with slightly more impunity, it gives the Tau an excellent chance at being far more aggressive an army.

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PostPosted: Fri Mar 30, 2012 12:42 pm 
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So... uber rapid fire? Speaking of rapid fire, switch it so that it's half range and not the set 12.
I think the biggest problem was that while it averages out to be not so impressive, getting or not getting an extra shooting phase can be a game changer, as swinging between the extremes of getting or not getting the bonus is a fair difference.
But now that you've change it, it should be fine.
7 or less is also pretty powerful, that's missile pods and plasma included. Should probably be scaled down to s5, or points costs should sky rocket. That'll be pretty powerful with the flamers though, cheap, multiple, re-rollable templates.
Why not just let firewarriors/pulse weapons re-roll hits (or maybe wounds?) if they pass a leadership/initiative test?

I'm still opting for the cheap screen units instead of buffing shooting.

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