House Rules (need your input)

Apocalypticon has been discontinued. Click here for all the details
Locked
Aegis
Gold Vault Member
Posts: 943
Joined: Thu Jul 08, 2010 6:30 pm
Location: Welland, Ontario
Contact:

Re: House Rules (need your input)

Post by Aegis » Mon Feb 27, 2012 9:45 pm

I do not see the lack of structure points as the large issue with allowing SR's as fliers. More so, it is as Matt mentioned, the lack of methods to deal with them. Look through the various codecies, and tell me how many entries have an AA rule attached to them. Even a number of other fliers lack the AA rule. This makes a stormraven (and even a valkyrie/vendetta) to be grossly powerful for their point cost if they are counted as fliers.

Recently, I played a game of Apoc. at MWG. I was running my four Stormravens and my T-hawk, and my buddy was running a pair of vendetta's. One turn, I pumped about 16 twin-linked assault cannon shots into a single vendetta one turn, and only got about two or three hits on the damn thing. By the end of the game, not a single flier had been destroyed, and the T-hawk had only lost two structure points, and that was to extreme dedicated fire.

While I would like to even say Valkyries/Vendettas as being non-flier's, there are precedents set by IA. But, having said that, if Stormraven's are allowed to be used as fliers, I will not be heartbroken, seeing as I have many to field.
Former MWG Leland, now just regular, old Leland. Now with more grump!

To see what I am working on, check out my Facebook page at its new address Aegisbrand Studios or just search for Leland Martel

Ryan
Gold Vault Member
Posts: 858
Joined: Thu Jun 10, 2010 4:25 pm
Location: Canada, Ontario, Pelham

Re: House Rules (need your input)

Post by Ryan » Mon Feb 27, 2012 10:28 pm

Mabey have them choose at the start and stay that way? That way if they are a flyer they can't contest and if they are a skimmer then they cant fly? Or only allow them to claim certain advantages (assuming there's multiple) for being a flyer instead of all?

Having more flyers on the feild may actually be a good thing for team work too, it would make teams have to worry about helping eachother out a bit more by spreading around the AA guns targets and allow quick re-enforcement to any players that are getting overly crushed.

I've never looked into flyers before do I don't know much but hopfully that helped :?
-Ryan Guzowski
9000 points points of Imperial Smurf Marines!!!!
Yay a full company!
4000pts of Empire

Aegis
Gold Vault Member
Posts: 943
Joined: Thu Jul 08, 2010 6:30 pm
Location: Welland, Ontario
Contact:

Re: House Rules (need your input)

Post by Aegis » Mon Feb 27, 2012 10:39 pm

Fliers have unlimited movement, as long as they move a minimum of 36" from their previous location. In addition, they hit vehicles on side armour they turn they arrive, regardless of facing. Also, with the AA special rule, anything attempting to shoot at them only hit on a roll of a 6. Adding to that, anything ground unit shooting at the flier reduces 12" from their distance. Lastly, they can always fire all weapons regardless of movement.

Now, consider all that on a 205pt. Stormraven, that can transport a unit of infantry, plus a dreadnaught, and with its potential armament, we get a terribly powerful unit for an extremely discount price. Valkyries and Vendettas are an even better deal, consider they are roughly 2/3's the cost of the stormraven (considering upgrades, and such).

Once again, I will gladly take my stormravens as fliers, but I think that would be over powered.
Former MWG Leland, now just regular, old Leland. Now with more grump!

To see what I am working on, check out my Facebook page at its new address Aegisbrand Studios or just search for Leland Martel

User avatar
KBelleau
MiniWarGaming Zealot
Posts: 328
Joined: Tue Dec 23, 2008 12:32 am
Location: Canada Ontario in da North
Contact:

Re: House Rules (need your input)

Post by KBelleau » Tue Feb 28, 2012 12:22 am

Ok, here's my thoughts on the subject... get ready...

1. I have no prob letting the Storm Raven,Valk, vendet,etc... become flyers with hover. Because firstly, if they start as flyers they are held in reserve. If they want to start on the table they are skimmer in hover mode.
Secondly, if they are transporting units while in flyer mode and are shot down... all hands are lost. With no opportunity to save :twisted:
So please use your flyers.... and I'll enjoy shooting them down.

2. Dealing with flyers is not a challenge, as some may think. GW did put one little item in most peoples armies for dealing with them. Pintle mounted weapons. For a few points investment, you have a AA mount. IG have a huge advantage against flyer armies. I wish Eldar could take pintle mounts... but then that's why we have the Best flyers!

So lets play nice and die with honor.

potato32
Gold Vault Member
Posts: 1020
Joined: Wed Jun 30, 2010 8:28 pm

Re: House Rules (need your input)

Post by potato32 » Tue Feb 28, 2012 12:57 am

Say, I've always thought of Tau barracudas being air-to-air superiority fightercrafts. But never looked at air needing a AA mount to shoot at other aircrafts, it sounds a bit backward to me. The barracuda and remora drones are both flyers without structure points in apoc and skimmers in base games too.

User avatar
Laughterofgods
MiniWarGaming Regular
Posts: 76
Joined: Mon Feb 28, 2011 8:47 am

Re: House Rules (need your input)

Post by Laughterofgods » Tue Feb 28, 2012 3:44 pm

KBelleau wrote:Ok, here's my thoughts on the subject... get ready...

1. I have no prob letting the Storm Raven,Valk, vendet,etc... become flyers with hover. Because firstly, if they start as flyers they are held in reserve. If they want to start on the table they are skimmer in hover mode.
Secondly, if they are transporting units while in flyer mode and are shot down... all hands are lost. With no opportunity to save :twisted:
So please use your flyers.... and I'll enjoy shooting them down.

2. Dealing with flyers is not a challenge, as some may think. GW did put one little item in most peoples armies for dealing with them. Pintle mounted weapons. For a few points investment, you have a AA mount. IG have a huge advantage against flyer armies. I wish Eldar could take pintle mounts... but then that's why we have the Best flyers!

So lets play nice and die with honor.

Did I miss something? I don't remember ever seeing anything about pintle mounted weapons being equivalent to AA mount?

User avatar
Randolph
Gold Vault Member
Posts: 239
Joined: Wed Aug 04, 2010 11:32 am
Location: Kitchener

Re: House Rules (need your input)

Post by Randolph » Tue Feb 28, 2012 4:37 pm

P. 96 of the Apoc main rulebook, under Anti-Aircraft Mount:

"Note that all weapons that are described as pintle-mounted also automatically have the AA mount special rule"
15k Crimson Fist Fully Painted
5k Celestial Lions Fully Painted
40k Titan Legion
Krome to the rescue

Give a man a fire and he will be warm for the night. Ignite him with a Flamestorm Cannon and he will be warm for the rest of his life

Aegis
Gold Vault Member
Posts: 943
Joined: Thu Jul 08, 2010 6:30 pm
Location: Welland, Ontario
Contact:

Re: House Rules (need your input)

Post by Aegis » Tue Feb 28, 2012 6:03 pm

Having a pintle mounted weapon is AA, however, think about the typical pintle-mounted weapon. Usually it is a low strength weapon, like a storm bolter. Factor in the 12" less range, and you have some very specific criteria to meet in order to shoot those fliers out of the sky with pintle weapons.

The best one I can think of is a pintle-mounted multimelta on the landraiders. Beyond, the weapons are typical anti-infantry weapons.

However, Kris' point does remain valid in that there is more AA than I originally alluded to. It just is not high quality.

As far as the air-to-air, I am willing to be corrected on the matter, but I always understood it to be that you still needed to roll 6's to hit without AA weapons. I will look through the Apoc. books again tonight, and see if I can disprove myself on that, or someone can correct me before hand.
Former MWG Leland, now just regular, old Leland. Now with more grump!

To see what I am working on, check out my Facebook page at its new address Aegisbrand Studios or just search for Leland Martel

User avatar
KBelleau
MiniWarGaming Zealot
Posts: 328
Joined: Tue Dec 23, 2008 12:32 am
Location: Canada Ontario in da North
Contact:

Re: House Rules (need your input)

Post by KBelleau » Tue Feb 28, 2012 6:13 pm

Aegis wrote:As far as the air-to-air, I am willing to be corrected on the matter, but I always understood it to be that you still needed to roll 6's to hit without AA weapons. I will look through the Apoc. books again tonight, and see if I can disprove myself on that, or someone can correct me before hand.
Flyers are always hit on 6+ regardless of source, unless they are shot from a unit with AA rule. So to answer your question... a flyer shooting at another flyer needs 6+ to hit, unless it has AA mounted weapons.

So for instance, a StormRaven vs a NightWing... the SR will need 6+ to hit the NW. The NW will hit at its BS value...

StormRaven will die.... :twisted:

User avatar
Tyranid96
MiniWarGaming Zealot
Posts: 471
Joined: Sat May 29, 2010 7:26 am
Ribbons Earned: Has Completed 5 Painting Pledges

Re: House Rules (need your input)

Post by Tyranid96 » Tue Feb 28, 2012 7:09 pm

I just realized how little AA weaponry there is
Blood Angels: Angels Sanguine 10,000pts +
Tyranids: Hive Fleet Andromedous- 3.5k+
Orks: 2500 pts
Grey Knights: 1750+
IG: 1500+


Cygnar:224
Legion: 70
Retribution: 75

Aegis
Gold Vault Member
Posts: 943
Joined: Thu Jul 08, 2010 6:30 pm
Location: Welland, Ontario
Contact:

Re: House Rules (need your input)

Post by Aegis » Tue Feb 28, 2012 8:00 pm

Tyranid96 wrote:I just realized how little AA weaponry there is
It kind of makes sense, though, considering fliers are not used in typical games. Though, we will see if that changes with 6th edition.
Former MWG Leland, now just regular, old Leland. Now with more grump!

To see what I am working on, check out my Facebook page at its new address Aegisbrand Studios or just search for Leland Martel

User avatar
Randolph
Gold Vault Member
Posts: 239
Joined: Wed Aug 04, 2010 11:32 am
Location: Kitchener

Re: House Rules (need your input)

Post by Randolph » Wed Feb 29, 2012 12:50 pm

Aegis wrote:Having a pintle mounted weapon is AA, however, think about the typical pintle-mounted weapon. Usually it is a low strength weapon, like a storm bolter. Factor in the 12" less range, and you have some very specific criteria to meet in order to shoot those fliers out of the sky with pintle weapons.
When the recent Space Marines codex came out they changed most references from Pintle mounted to Sponson mounted so many items lost the AA rule.

If you go back through your Space Marines codex try and find a reference to Pintle Mounted anywhere.

Black Templars, Dark Angels and Sisters of Battle probably still have these references for their vehicles. But these too may have been FAQ'd out.
15k Crimson Fist Fully Painted
5k Celestial Lions Fully Painted
40k Titan Legion
Krome to the rescue

Give a man a fire and he will be warm for the night. Ignite him with a Flamestorm Cannon and he will be warm for the rest of his life

User avatar
irishorks
MiniWarGaming Regular
Posts: 55
Joined: Sun Feb 13, 2011 6:09 pm
Location: Earth....I think

Re: House Rules (need your input)

Post by irishorks » Fri Mar 02, 2012 8:06 am

Wouldn't having no units able to repair a super-heavy make it so you could make a super-heavy useless very very fast? Esspesially the weaker ones such as stompas who you already made weak with the KFF no longer working on it.
1 stompa, 1 klawstompa, 2 big mek stompas, 1 pulsa, 1 blasta bommer
8k of orks
1k of gray knights

User avatar
miniwargaming
Site Admin
Posts: 2837
Joined: Wed Dec 12, 2007 2:38 pm

Re: House Rules (need your input)

Post by miniwargaming » Fri Mar 02, 2012 9:24 am

Sure, but that's only because there is a ton of firepower on both sides, which means tons of things will die quickly.

You should really reverse the question and say "Wouldn't being able to repair a super heavy make it too powerful in a game where things are supposed to die quickly?"

Ryan
Gold Vault Member
Posts: 858
Joined: Thu Jun 10, 2010 4:25 pm
Location: Canada, Ontario, Pelham

Re: House Rules (need your input)

Post by Ryan » Fri Mar 02, 2012 1:12 pm

miniwargaming wrote:Sure, but that's only because there is a ton of firepower on both sides, which means tons of things will die quickly.

You should really reverse the question and say "Wouldn't being able to repair a super heavy make it too powerful in a game where things are supposed to die quickly?"

Agreed, what fun would it be if not one super heavy blew up?
-Ryan Guzowski
9000 points points of Imperial Smurf Marines!!!!
Yay a full company!
4000pts of Empire

Locked

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest