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PostPosted: Fri Dec 23, 2011 5:51 pm 
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 27, 2011 11:18 am 
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Man you guys sure have it out for the T-sons. I'm not going to argue, and never did say that they are the best or even a good unit to take. My only point was that they could be useful with their massed AP3 fire. Barring cover, invulnerable saves, terminator armor, etc. they are going to wipe out most squads in a single round of shooting or at least reduce them to pretty ineffective close combat if it comes to that. If you're getting them into close combat, you are probably playing them wrong anyway.
As for tank-busting, just as well toss more point into the sorceror with a Bolt of Change to push their cost to almost 300?!?!
Would I recommend a new player take them? No
Are they a good troop unit overall? No
Are they over-priced? Absolutely
Are there better Troop (or other) choices for most situations? definitely
Do they need a rhino to get them anywhere effective? usually
Is your opponent going to have to deal with them or get blasted by low AP shots eventually? usually
Are they absolute crap? Not in my opinion

I thinkg mrfidgets was looking for some advise on what he could do to make what he's got to play with effective. Not just "what you have is crap, try something else". Not using T-sons is good advise for a new player, so were some of the other tips for plague & khorne units.


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 27, 2011 11:58 am 
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The problem is, is that he enjoyed the Thousand Sons fluff and models and good for him. If he wishes to field a Thousand Son army, I say he does. The only problem is.... its not effective... at all.

It really sucks that his favorite army just got crapped all over because of gameplay but I guess facts are facts. If he doesnt really care about losing then I guess he could field them. But expect to win very few.

Especially with Spawn / Bikers etc. sigh.

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 27, 2011 9:40 pm 
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Ferrous-Wrex wrote:
Barring cover, invulnerable saves, terminator armor, etc. they are going to wipe out most squads in a single round of shooting


See here's the problem, they will be under those exact circumstances most of the time.


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 27, 2011 10:18 pm 
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Ferrous-Wrex wrote:
Barring cover, invulnerable saves, terminator armor, etc. they are going to wipe out most squads in a single round of shooting

With 18 shots at a unit of regular Marines outside of Cover, you'll be hitting 12 times and wounding 6. That doesn't sound like you're wiping out a unit most of the time to me. It sounds like you just wasted 300 points to kill 6 Space Marines, because they WILL die next turn.

But an opponent not using cover when there's a unit with AP3 Rapid fire weapons only a turn away from using them is not an opponent worth playing.

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 28, 2011 12:09 pm 
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A full 10 man unit you're correct. The sorceror will get 1-3 shots in there as well with a spell. If you get any shots in at 24" range, which I know you'll say you shouldn't if your opponent knows how to use cover, then a unit is pretty much wiped out.
There aren't too many units of 10 out there that effectively wipe out 60-70% of a 10 man MEQ in one round of shooting.


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PostPosted: Fri Dec 30, 2011 12:51 am 
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Ferrous-Wrex wrote:
There aren't too many units of 10 out there that effectively wipe out 60-70% of a 10 man MEQ in one round of shooting.

Dire Avengers can do it for 152 points. Throw a Farseer in there, bringing their points to 272 (which is still cheaper than the 1k Sons) and you'll be overkilling a squad of Marines in a single round of shooting. This is with AP5 weapons mind you, so cover means nothing when firing at Marines.

19 Hellions would put some serious hurt on for 304 points. They cause 12-13 wounds (killing 4-5 Marines) and then guess what! They're actually good in the assault phase! Charging would give them 57, WS4, S4 attacks at I6. They could also possibly have +1 WS, +1 S, +1 A, rerolls to wound, FnP, FnP and Furious charge. They'd only have one of those though (excluding the FnP/FnP + Furious Charge which may be gained in ways other that drugs).

A single Ravager usually coming in at 115 points would kill 3 Marines. Taking 2 would be 6 dead, which is equal to what the 1k Sons are doing for 70 points less and no need for a transport. If you factor in the Rhino the 1k Sons would have, then we could squeeze in a 3rd Ravager for only 5 points more, which would mean 9 dead Marines.

12 Fire Warriors Rapid Firing a Markerlighted unit would cost around the same and would do immense amounts of damage. 24 shots hitting on 2's and wounding on 3's would kill 4-5 Marines, and this is Tau we're talking about. And Fire Warriors at that.

There you go. That's just a few scenario's in which roughly equally costed units would do just as much as the 1k Sons and then some. The Dire Avengers would kill about the same amount without any support of any kind, and at half the cost, though they'd usually be boosted by a Farseer and he brings their points up for a more equal comparison. Multiple Ravagers was purely for fairness (bringing the points closer for a more even comparison). Other than the Ravagers, the other 3 options were all troops (well, not the Farseer or Pathfinders with the Markerlights, but they're support based units and caused no damage) because, let's face it, anyone taking Hellions without the Baron in there army is not doing it right.

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