Computer designed army lists

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mrazek22
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Computer designed army lists

Post by mrazek22 » Fri Apr 20, 2018 11:06 am

So, I recently started to work with a programmer friend of mine to create a program that looks at the rules we set it, and build lists based off those rules. So far we are currently in the phase of reducing units to mathematical equivalents, which is difficult in binary terms. We came across a problem of telling the program that if the army allows tanks which are say, 50, and troops which are 10, that it shouldn't exclusively pick 50s.

So we tried to set parameters that mimicked RPS (Rock paper scissors) in that 2x 10s might be able to take down a 50 easier than a 50. It became increasingly difficult to create the varying factors, and we quit. It kept telling us that Salamanders were the most efficient unit for the cost, or just Baneblades. All Baneblades.

Has anyone ever tried to create something like this and found success? I was inspired by a program that Richard Dawkins made in the early 00's to mimic single celled organism evolutionary paths, in order to get a better understanding of what behaviors might be best suitable to a computer's mind for cellular growth.

If no one has any suggestions, I am off to buy ALL THE SALAMANDERS AND BANEBLADES.

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Re: Computer designed army lists

Post by Ronin » Fri Apr 20, 2018 11:14 am

My friend and I were thinking about making a machine learning program that took a lot of data points from competitive games to predict how one list set up would do against the other. A human should be able to predict the outcome by simply glancing at it so it should be doable in theory. Like say, if one list has a ton of lascannons vs a tank list, you'd weigh in that the lascannon list would win. More of a future thought, but good luck if you're trying to do something similar. I wouldn't judge things based on one unit, but by how the entire army operates as a whole whether it's a balanced list, leans to be more anti horde, anti tank, can exert more board control, etc. It's pretty ambitious, but I think it'd be something worth a published paper too.

On another note, I used monte carlo to figure out plasma weapons were the best way to go.

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Re: Computer designed army lists

Post by mrazek22 » Fri Apr 20, 2018 11:30 am

See, that's just the problem. Each unit has not only it's personal effective strengths and weaknesses, but those are radically altered against other units, and become exponentially more so when you add multiples of units or a third type of unit. It's in the billions now. And we don't have that type of coding time.

I was looking to possibly piggy back. I wanted to reduce all armies to their constituent types, troops, FA, HS, elites, etc, but even that is impossible. Basically, 1 lone loota ork should be a 1, and 1x lone SM should be like 1.45. Should be easy, but there are too many possible computations off that one single matchup.

Anyway, Salamanders.

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Re: Computer designed army lists

Post by Koonitz » Fri Apr 20, 2018 11:53 am

That's probably why it has never been done before.

Besides, being able to predict every game would be boring. I mean, as said, we can generally predict how a game will go by looking at it, some times, but not always, and especially not with two competent commanders. Unorthodox strategies and luck can throw even the best predicts out the window.
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Re: Computer designed army lists

Post by Ronin » Fri Apr 20, 2018 12:46 pm

It's been done, but not for 40k. I'm pretty sure it's been applied to things like stocks, weather, sports, and the military, but it's more of a fun exercise to practice programming and machine learning skills on.

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Re: Computer designed army lists

Post by Koonitz » Fri Apr 20, 2018 12:58 pm

Ronin wrote:
Fri Apr 20, 2018 12:46 pm
It's been done, but not for 40k. I'm pretty sure it's been applied to things like stocks, weather, sports, and the military, but it's more of a fun exercise to practice programming and machine learning skills on.
That's true. I mean, I think it would be an interesting experiment, but it would be a daunting task.
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Re: Computer designed army lists

Post by Ronin » Fri Apr 20, 2018 1:20 pm

For sure. Like I said, if I ever got it done, I'd submit a paper for publishing in a scientific journal.

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Re: Computer designed army lists

Post by mrazek22 » Fri Apr 20, 2018 1:31 pm

Guys, guys, guys. If I ever started this in earnest GW would sue me up the wazoo for somehow violating copyright. That and exposing the truth! SALAMANDERS ARE GOD TIER.

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Re: Computer designed army lists

Post by Ronin » Fri Apr 20, 2018 2:18 pm

Only if you make a profit off of it somehow. If you keep it non profit and for public use, then you'd be ok.

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Re: Computer designed army lists

Post by mrazek22 » Fri Apr 20, 2018 2:29 pm

I am still remember being told I couldn't discuss "Battlescribe" in the store because it talks about non-GW 40k product. I laughed my butt off, took my army off the table, and walked out.

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Re: Computer designed army lists

Post by Ronin » Fri Apr 20, 2018 2:54 pm

Well, that's GW. They have a very strict policy on non-GW products, but who goes to game at a GW these days? :P

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Re: Computer designed army lists

Post by mrazek22 » Fri Apr 20, 2018 3:02 pm

That's my thing. It's the only place with a dedicated "official" for rule questions, and a dedicated space for gaming, usually with high class terrain sets. Beats a plastic table with some red cups as "ruins" and a piece of paper with a circle for "forest". I am honestly interested in terrain building now, over model painting.

Once I step outside the rules and edicts of the GW store, it's like a whole new world. You mean I DON'T NEED TO BUY THESE MODELS? I can Mold them???

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Re: Computer designed army lists

Post by Bojazz » Fri Apr 20, 2018 3:13 pm

I pretty much play solely at the local GW or my own house with friends. The manager at my GW encourages people to use battlescribe, is totally fine with using house rules, etc. I haven't tried using non-GW models but in regards to conversions he's fine so long as it looks "gw-ish". I'm also scratch building some ork terrain and he's encouraging me to bring it into the store to play with, and there are no GW parts on it.

I must have a unicorn manager or something, going by some of the horror stories you guys have told.
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Re: Computer designed army lists

Post by noograss » Tue Apr 24, 2018 7:39 am

HI,
I'm also a battelscribe user but i think one issue with it is when the user doesn't take the time to actually read and understand his army rules.
which then leads to a cheer amount of scrolling and squinting at a screen :p

That could be the reason why it's somehow frown upon

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Re: Computer designed army lists

Post by Koonitz » Tue Apr 24, 2018 10:04 am

noograss wrote:
Tue Apr 24, 2018 7:39 am
HI,
I'm also a battelscribe user but i think one issue with it is when the user doesn't take the time to actually read and understand his army rules.
which then leads to a cheer amount of scrolling and squinting at a screen :p

That could be the reason why it's somehow frown upon
Personally, I frown upon battlescribe because it's been wrong often enough that I refuse to rely on it as a source of rules. Please have your actual rulebook/codex with you if you intend to use battlescribe as your army list generator.
Armies:
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30k: Thousand Sons
Age of Sigmar: Sylvaneth, Disciples of Tzeentch

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