Latest 9th Ed Rumors - MODEL PICS ADDED / RULES PICS TOO

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Re: Latest 9th Ed Rumors - MODEL PICS ADDED / RULES PICS TOO

Post by ParanoidEngineer » Fri Jul 03, 2015 6:24 pm

It's a question of talking to your opponent and deciding before you play: whilst you can hypothetically take 100 Chaos Lords vs 100 Gobbo's, it's not particularly sporting and would ruin the game for all involved.

There are also formations to follow a la 40k to help set up balance: a formation vs a formation would likely be roughly equal and balanced.
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Re: Latest 9th Ed Rumors - MODEL PICS ADDED / RULES PICS TOO

Post by BigAxeGod » Fri Jul 03, 2015 6:25 pm

That sounds far more manageable. Cheers
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Re: Latest 9th Ed Rumors - MODEL PICS ADDED / RULES PICS TOO

Post by Kovlovsky » Fri Jul 03, 2015 6:30 pm

I think the new absence of any balancing system is a big problem. While some absurd matches will be easy to spot, I think the devil is in the details. It's very easy to hide some very strong models in a larger army of units that seem not too strong. Also, new players might get caught by unethical people. I'm really not a fan of this personnally. The only redeeming part in this is that in general, the different models seem pretty much equivalent between armies, but some units seem to hit really hard. Anyway, we will find out soon. BTW, Grimgor seem underwhelming so far. I'm not particularly satisfied, but something might have escaped me.
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Re: Latest 9th Ed Rumors - MODEL PICS ADDED / RULES PICS TOO

Post by ParanoidEngineer » Fri Jul 03, 2015 6:35 pm

Grimgor seems pretty neat on paper: if you stand another Orc (I'm not using the new names get out of here GW) hero near him, he'll hit on 2's, he does a fair amount of damage (potentially eight wounds a turn) and has a nice one-use buff for your Boyz.
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Re: Latest 9th Ed Rumors - MODEL PICS ADDED / RULES PICS TOO

Post by Kovlovsky » Fri Jul 03, 2015 6:47 pm

ParanoidEngineer wrote:Grimgor seems pretty neat on paper: if you stand another Orc (I'm not using the new names get out of here GW) hero near him, he'll hit on 2's, he does a fair amount of damage (potentially eight wounds a turn) and has a nice one-use buff for your Boyz.
I've scoured fast into my list, I may not have seen this. Hehe. I will have to check it with more attention.
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Re: Latest 9th Ed Rumors - MODEL PICS ADDED / RULES PICS TOO

Post by TigerDave » Fri Jul 03, 2015 9:57 pm

Preface:
This touches on something that I am very passionate about. It is difficult to find a suitable writing voice that expresses that passion, and yet conveys that no sort of deliberate personal attack is intended. I would hope by now that you would all have come to your own conclusion that I have the utmost respect for each and every one of you, and would never come to an internet forum to beat you down. It's not in my heart to attack any more; I've literally had my fill of that in real life. Also, we're a smaller community here, and I've come to consider you as friends, albeit distance-hindered ones. In the end, I must turn to Spock to help express my thoughts in a way far superior than I ever could: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F4Op4vc3GBs
I think the new absence of any balancing system is a big problem.
I do not. In fact, I think the absence of a balancing system is both deliberate, and necessary.

No amount of rules can cover for "butt-hattery". While the same behaviors are also found in the casual environment it is more noticeable in the tournament scene due to the larger stage. Many players have adapted the following conventions out of a necessity to Win At All Costs:

1)
Heating and stretching your measuring stick to get more range.
2) Measuring your arm, arm+book in advance, then leaning over the table to get a birds-eye and pointing to the target unit (back when we didn't premeasure)
3) Using obnoxious habits (didn't take a shower, banging drum sticks to distract your opponent, consistently asking for rules checks on minor issues, etc.)
4) Bringing WAAC-style armies to a casual game.

I am a strong proponent for the concept that it is the responsibility of the gaming community to provide the entertaining environment, not the game. We should be policing our own. To paraphrase Mr. Malorian discussing his orc army, if my opponents are not having fun playing my army, then I am going to bring another army. To quote me, if you're being a "Richard" while gaming, I am going to invite you outside and introduce you to some dimensional lumber (also known as a 2x4) in an attempt to help you see the light. No, I am not actually going to beat up players, but I absolutely WILL call you out on it, and eventually you will find your number of willing opponents rapidly shrinking to zero.

Now here's the big reason, and I'm not sure we're looking at this clearly. Again, I think the absence of a balancing system is both deliberate, and necessary.

One of the problems with Fantasy, and we KNOW this to be true, is that entry barrier trifecta: money, effort, time. Under the old system these elements represented a huge hurdle to new players who would decide that it is not worth bothering to start the game, especially since they could go to 40K, buy just a couple of unit boxes and a HQ and get started.

We now have the option to do the exact same. The new player can actually start playing almost immediately with a modest collection, AND can do so against a player with a superior collection and still have a decent experience. It allows for that more palatable entry force that can grow over time. It also starts generating the concept that we can do more than Battle Line. For example: I feel like bringing nothing but monsters today. Because I can. Period. I don't need an excuse, I don't need to beg, I can simply show up with a couple of big gribblies and we can have a go just because. I feel like we're in one of those sci-fi movies, and we're just coming outside of "the dome" for the first time and discovering there's a whole new world out here. Again - community-based balancing.

Finally, for the tournament player, and this one is pretty simple actually:
1) Who predominately runs tournaments any more? Is it GW?
2) Have not these events in the past imposed restrictions that are NOT in the official rules? (Swiss comp, ITC comp, ETC comp, Las Vegas comp ...)
3) What is to prevent these exact same organizations from doing the exact same thing in the future? We actually have some structure limits already: Main factions. Individual races. Warscroll Battalions. Tournament organizers will be able to use these tools to provide whatever structure they see fit to the gaming community, and I think they can do a good job of it.

Look, I know it seems a bit daunting, but I really think this is deliberate, necessary, and EMPOWERING! More games. More options. More ways to enter the hobby and participate at a level that is comfortable for you. It is literally NOTHING BUT WIN.

I don't know if this is going to really appeal to everyone. In every one of those "Look - we're free!" moments in those movies I mentioned earlier there are always those who are either unwilling or unable to adapt. If this *IS* you, I am sorry, and as a friend I will do everything I can to hook you up with a group of like-minded persons where you can be in a gaming environment where you are comfortable, and I wish you the very best, and lets stay in touch because I *will* miss you. I did warn that the new game wouldn't be for everyone. I do think, however, that it brings way more good than it does harm, and once the boat stops rocking (here we go being nautical again) I think we can get back to having a good time.

One thing is for certain: It costs you ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to try the current system out for yourself, amongst your friends, and to get a feel for it. GW has done, in my mind, the most brilliant, deliberate and well-thought release that they ever could, and have provided us tools to enhance our gaming pleasure completely at what is comfortable for us.

May your day, and your game, be blessed.

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Re: Latest 9th Ed Rumors - MODEL PICS ADDED / RULES PICS TOO

Post by Zrie » Fri Jul 03, 2015 10:09 pm

From just reading the Warscrolls for Skaven in Age of Sigmar, I think Games-Workshop have done a VERY good job at making the Skaven still feel like Skavens in AoS. Weapon teams can still blow themself up by mistake, the Abomb is still too horrible to die and now there is the most fluffy rules ever... Our Chieftain can backstab our Warlord and take his place as the General, because Skaven is still Skaven.

I personally think Games-Workshop done a good effort in trying to show respect atleast towards the Skaven players keeping the Skaven feel and not Changing our race into.. Pink easier bunnies or something...


ALSO on another note the guy who found on the names Orruks, Grots, Ogors... And AELF!! is the most lazy GW Employe in their Company.. And he needs to be showered in money, for the 5 minutes of work it must have taken him to come up with such high quality names.. It is so unneeded, so lazy and so amazingly funny

- Edit: Removed a picture that I'm not sure if I could get in trouble from -
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Re: Latest 9th Ed Rumors - MODEL PICS ADDED / RULES PICS TOO

Post by TigerDave » Fri Jul 03, 2015 10:20 pm

Zrie, I would not be surprised if the names had undergone a very rigorous process. While I am pretty on board with this new game, I am with Paranoid here - I'm using the old names.

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Re: Latest 9th Ed Rumors - MODEL PICS ADDED / RULES PICS TOO

Post by Kovlovsky » Fri Jul 03, 2015 10:21 pm

Well, when you're playing with friends or people that you know are fairplay, you don't need that many rules, but even then, you will always know a competitive friend who refuses any type of self-restrictions. I know so many persons who think this way : "I'm allowed to do it, I will do it whatever what you think". They are playing to win and for them, that's all what is counting. Rules exists in games to protect people that are there to have fun from "that guy" and the ultra-competitive freaks.

So, I will say it straight, I think this was a big mistake from GW. They could have taken a point system where a game is about 50 pts with maybe 20 models on the board. They could have used a rigid FoC like old 3rd edition of 40k where you can one or two choices of each categories with standardised unit sizes (let's say 10 guys by squad). They had plenty of ways to build a balancing system that doesn't need someone to bring 100 models to be able to play. Now, we're with a system where, your gameplay experience will entirely depend of the good faith and human qualities of the guy in front. Previously, you could have a very horrible game with "that guy", but at least, he couldn't do everything he wanted.

That's the same reason why we have laws, a police and a judicial system. Some people can auto-regulate themselves, have a natural civic spirit and think about what others will feel before doing something. Others need to know there will be consequences to their acts to behave correctly and they need outside laws to keep themselves in check.

Not everyone is reasonnable or sensible to what other people thinks. They are people that are so self-centred that they won't hear any logical and reasonnable discourses. And sometimes, you get to your club and the place is full of this type of guys. So you have the awesome choice between not playing them and doing nothing or playing them and getting all the varieties of douche baggery you can imagine. If GW want their game to be enjoyable, they must plan their game in function of the reality, not how we would want it to be.
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Re: Latest 9th Ed Rumors - MODEL PICS ADDED / RULES PICS TOO

Post by Zrie » Fri Jul 03, 2015 10:35 pm

And the reasoning behind the names is most likely something about ip / copy right, so its completely fair and fine, that it is so close to Uruk-hai, I find very funny but... Sigmarines! We need weird names for everything!


About the balance and missing point system, I looked once over Skaven and looked over stats of the Sigmarines and think "Statwise I need double as many models at least to fight sigmarines fairly, but I can't stop the other player from putting models on the table... That could be a problem."

But we need to play test the game a lot to know anything, and if a point system is needed, then people will take their time to look over each model and figure out points.. And in the end there will hopefully end up being one of two point systems that the majority of people use.. just like popular comb lists as said.

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Re: Latest 9th Ed Rumors - MODEL PICS ADDED / RULES PICS TOO

Post by Hedonismbot » Fri Jul 03, 2015 11:38 pm

Kovlovsky wrote:Well, when you're playing with friends or people that you know are fairplay, you don't need that many rules, but even then, you will always know a competitive friend who refuses any type of self-restrictions. I know so many persons who think this way : "I'm allowed to do it, I will do it whatever what you think". They are playing to win and for them, that's all what is counting. Rules exists in games to protect people that are there to have fun from "that guy" and the ultra-competitive freaks.
Well, also so that folks at least have some guidelines and structure. It just saves you more time and headache and gives you some common ground when meeting other players you don't really know that well.
So, I will say it straight, I think this was a big mistake from GW. They could have taken a point system where a game is about 50 pts with maybe 20 models on the board. They could have used a rigid FoC like old 3rd edition of 40k where you can one or two choices of each categories with standardised unit sizes (let's say 10 guys by squad). They had plenty of ways to build a balancing system that doesn't need someone to bring 100 models to be able to play. Now, we're with a system where, your gameplay experience will entirely depend of the good faith and human qualities of the guy in front. Previously, you could have a very horrible game with "that guy", but at least, he couldn't do everything he wanted.

That's the same reason why we have laws, a police and a judicial system. Some people can auto-regulate themselves, have a natural civic spirit and think about what others will feel before doing something. Others need to know there will be consequences to their acts to behave correctly and they need outside laws to keep themselves in check.
Couldn't agree more.
Not everyone is reasonnable or sensible to what other people thinks. They are people that are so self-centred that they won't hear any logical and reasonnable discourses. And sometimes, you get to your club and the place is full of this type of guys. So you have the awesome choice between not playing them and doing nothing or playing them and getting all the varieties of douche baggery you can imagine. If GW want their game to be enjoyable, they must plan their game in function of the reality, not how we would want it to be.
Imo, there's a few other things I've a big issue with:

-Stats are so dumbed down it just feels insulting and makes no sense in many cases. So my guys just have a flat out roll to hit regardless of what they're fighting. My weapon let's me hit on a 4+, I could be fighting a night goblin or a bloddthirster, it doesn't matter, I only hit half the time.

- You wound on a fixed value too. Same issues as above and Imo has me wanting to run my head against the wall. No more toughness.

-No initiative value. So a lightning fast elf now strikes at the same speed as a zombie? Apparently figuring out who attacked first in combat was hard? If this is because it's marketed towards kids, I'm worried about the next generation.

-Customization is gone. There is next to no customization available on your characters. You're getting 1 or 2 item upgrades and that's it, no more list of items/ magic items to make some cool combos and build your heroes the way you want to anymore.

Magic is the same deal and each character comes with 1 or 2 set spells. Granted, some of the 8th ed spells were broken as hell, but I loved all those lores and sheer variety and possibilities it came with. Could've just toned down some things instead of removing them completely.

Both of those things have been a staple of the game for as long as I can can remember(been playing fantasy for nearly 2 decades) and they work.

Hopefully it plays a lot better than what I've seen.

But if they do something like this to 40k, the design team had better go into witness protection!
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Re: Latest 9th Ed Rumors - MODEL PICS ADDED / RULES PICS TOO

Post by Kovlovsky » Fri Jul 03, 2015 11:49 pm

I couldn't agree more with you, Hedonism. While I appreciate the ability to play a simple game sometime, I can garantee you that it won't be as immersive to me than the traditional Warhammer game we knew for years. For casual play it's an ok system, but I will be still playing the 8th edition most of the time.

If they do this to 40k, it will be the last time I will buy a rulebook and I will stick with the 7th edition forever. I wasn't invested in Fantasy as much as 40k, so I can tolerate it on Fantasy, but I can't in 40k. That would kill my fun completely.

Edit : typo
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Re: Latest 9th Ed Rumors - MODEL PICS ADDED / RULES PICS TOO

Post by Dez » Sat Jul 04, 2015 12:02 am

Well, I kinda sit on the fence with this one but can sum it up.

Age of Sigmar, I'll play it with friend and my kids.

For everything else, it's Kings of War.

I enjoy all the different aspects of this hobby. Setting up silly scenarios against unbeatable odds is a lot of fun to me. Beer and Pretzels is what I do every Wednesday. I also like to play competitively though...and AoS is just leaving me flabbergasted with my pants on my head in that regard.

I'm just getting to read pdf's now.
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Re: Latest 9th Ed Rumors - MODEL PICS ADDED / RULES PICS TOO

Post by TheWolfman » Sat Jul 04, 2015 12:24 am

I think my favorite part of AoS is the formations. I like formations. A lot hahaha

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Re: Latest 9th Ed Rumors - MODEL PICS ADDED / RULES PICS TOO

Post by Nappen » Sat Jul 04, 2015 2:54 am

I do think a balancing system as at least an optional guide, for those who want a more even game would be nice. Ther should be some tax or way to balance the options, etc.

I wonder if that will be part of an eventual "big rule book" with more complex rules.

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