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Will Grim Return Work on Woldspine Wurm?

Posted: Mon May 20, 2013 4:30 am
by Zero
From the M14 spoilers on MTG Salvation:
Grim Return wrote:2b
Instant

Choose target creature card in a graveyard that was put there from the battlefield this turn. Put that card onto the battlefield under your control.

The necromancer's touch strips away memory and loyalty, so only strength and malice remain.

Illus. Seb McKinnon
So if I Grisly Salvage a Wurm away, do I get the chance to Grim Return it before its shuffle effect triggers? Or will it return to the field and then just get shuffled because its ability is still on the stack?

Re: Will Grim Return Work on Woldspine Wurm?

Posted: Mon May 20, 2013 5:20 am
by MFletch
Worldspine Wurm has not entered the battlefield so no.

If you somehow got the wurm onto the field but it died, then you could cast this instant.

You could, for example, cast it to bring a strangleroot geist before the undying triggers.

This is not a good card. It may combo we other things but that doesn't make it too crazy.

Re: Will Grim Return Work on Woldspine Wurm?

Posted: Mon May 20, 2013 6:37 am
by Zero
Oh wow, totally forgot about the whole "that was put there from the battlefield this turn" bit. Still, I think it could be a decent sideboard option against anything running over-the-top creatures. If you play BUG or something you could Spell Rupture their Angel of Serenity.

But yeah, not as good as I originally thought. I should probably stop trying to evaluate cards, combos and strategies when I'm tired. Or at all really, because I'm not quite good enough for that yet.

Re: Will Grim Return Work on Woldspine Wurm?

Posted: Mon May 20, 2013 7:28 pm
by m14
On a similar note, is it possible to pop Tormod's Crypt to exile the graveyard as soon as Worldspine Wurm before the wurm trigger checks to see if it hit the grave or as the wurm's trigger hits the stack? What about Wheel of Sun and Moon? Would a similar thing work after a spell like Mind Grind or any other mill effect resolves?

Re: Will Grim Return Work on Woldspine Wurm?

Posted: Mon May 20, 2013 8:16 pm
by MFletch
The wurm has a triggered ability. So the phase 'shuffle it into its owner's library.' just goes on the stack. So the tormod's crypt would go on the stack and resolve and remove the card from the game so the trigger will not happen. It analogous to an effect that says 'shuffle target card into its owners library', if the target is no longer around then it is not a legal target so the effect fizzles.

Wheel of Sun and Moon is a replacement effect. So it does not use the stack. So the wurm never hits the graveyard, so can its ability is not triggered.
You could ask how Wheel of Sun and Moon and RIP combine, as they both replace the same thing.

Mind grind would be fine as the wurm would still be in the graveyard when the triggered ability resolves.

'Spell Rupture their Angel of Serenity.'
Ok, the angel goes on the stack. The spell rupture goes on the stack. Spell rupture resolves removing the angel from the stack and putting it into the graveyard. The stack is now empty.
The angel was only on the stack never on the battlefield, so the instant can not target it.

The spell could work well if you wrathed the board then brought back their angel targeting your killed creatures. This is far too much mana and requires you to have two cards.
You could kill the angel and bring it back, which requires less mana but sounds less useful. You may as well evil twin the angel and then kill the angel.

Alternatively the spell could give bad protection from a wrath. They supreme verdict end of their turn you bring back a single creature, this is appears to be a worse rootborn defences. Maybe if the creature had a cool enter the battlefield ability you would be happy.
Rootborn defences is a good example, it is really had to keep 3 mana open just in case things die.

Also you should always try to evaluate cards to improve at it. It is an important skill. Even in game it is important to know which cards of your opponents are worth slaughter gaming or duressing.

Re: Will Grim Return Work on Woldspine Wurm?

Posted: Mon May 20, 2013 10:28 pm
by m14
So Wheel of Sun and Moon would have to be removed in order to keep cards in the grave. Got it. That's not a nice card to take on with a grind/mill deck...

Re: Will Grim Return Work on Woldspine Wurm?

Posted: Tue May 21, 2013 1:54 am
by Zero
MFletch wrote:'Spell Rupture their Angel of Serenity.'
Another example of why I shouldn't do things when I'm tired. I meant Rapid Hybridisation, or whatever it's called. The 1 CMC blue spell that destroys a creature and gives them a 3/3 token instead.