Thoughts on my Dimir Grind desk.

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eNi
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Thoughts on my Dimir Grind desk.

Post by eNi » Thu Feb 28, 2013 10:49 pm

So i have got back into magic lately after going to a standard Gatecrash booster draft tournie (got 5th out of 16). During the tournie i played a green blue evolve deck and got beaten in the semi's when i had to play a mirror match.

I have looked into playing a blue/black mill deck and wondering what you guys think about it.

http://www.mtgdeckbuilder.net/Decks/ViewDeck/508651

I am pretty sold on it, its fairly fast and seems to end games pretty well from testing thus far.
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Re: Thoughts on my Dimir Grind desk.

Post by Zero » Fri Mar 01, 2013 12:21 am

It looks pretty decent, but is it fast enough to win before an aggro deck beats you down? Aside from speed, I don't see many other ways to handle an aggro deck. I'd probably put in more removal, and maybe run some Defender creatures as well as some Doorkeepers to get mill out of your creatures too.

I'm not super experienced with Magic yet, but to me it just seems like you don't have a whole lot of ways to slow the game down long enough to mill your opponent before an aggro deck beats you down with a huge number of creatures. Obviously Jace's Phantasm's will slow it down a little, but I think you need some good removal in there too.

Killing Wave seems a bit out of place in the sideboard. You don't have a whole lot of ways to actually take the opponent's life away, so I'd think most would gladly pay a bit of life to save some of their creatures.

Anyway, that's just what I think. I'm still pretty new, so you'll have to excuse me if everything I said is wrong.
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Re: Thoughts on my Dimir Grind desk.

Post by eNi » Fri Mar 01, 2013 4:15 am

Doorkeepers ability would really never be used. And if I wanted more creature defence would be rocking kraken hatchling for my 1 drops or delver of secrets. Or possibly, now that I have had a better look, Fog Bank could be an option.

The mill is very strong In it and once jayce is out its nigh on over...if I can get him. Aggro is one type I will most likely battle against and killing wave is there for that but obviously won't really deal that well with it. I need to find something stronger in removal, that I agree with! Open to thoughts.

Liliana of dark realms is prob an option for the mana ramp possibilities, as well as the straight out win combo with her ultimate and mind grind and increasing confusion.

To slow aggro Jayces phantasm really is all I am packing at the moment. And a way to deal with it may be to look at getting Sphinx's Revelation but don't see this as an early game option.


Thinking this may be a stronger list;


Deck: Standard Mind Grind

Counts : 65 main / 15 sideboard

Creatures:10
4 Jace's Phantasm
3 Duskmantle Guildmage
2 Fog Bank
1 Consuming Aberration

Spells:28
4 Dream Twist
4 Increasing Confusion
1 Dimir Charm
4 Mind Grind
4 Mind Sculpt
2 Psychic Strike
2 Liliana of the Dark Realms
4 Jace, Memory Adept
2 Psychic Spiral
1 Omniscience

Lands:27
3 Drowned Catacomb
12 Island
3 Nephalia Drownyard
2 Reliquary Tower
7 Swamp

Sideboard:15
1 Codex Shredder
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Killing Wave
2 Thought Scour
2 Dimir Charm
2 Paranoid Delusions
1 Sands of Delirium
2 Evil Twin
1 Lazav, Dimir Mastermind
1 Whispering Madness
1 Witchbane Orb
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Re: Thoughts on my Dimir Grind desk.

Post by Zero » Fri Mar 01, 2013 5:52 am

Well there's plenty of nice Black removal. Murder would probably be your go-to solves-all-problems creature removal, and some Ultimate Prices just for the extra, but slightly more limited, removal too.

With Jace in the deck, I don't think you need so many mill cards. I think it'd really be more a matter of milling them when you can, but mostly trying to keep them from killing you before you get Jace on the field. Then when that happens it's pretty much game over.

With that in mind, I'd probably cut some cards to keep it down to 60, and then find room for some removal too. Liliana seems reasonable for her removal, and the ramp can be helpful, but I don't know if she fits so nicely into the deck personally.
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Re: Thoughts on my Dimir Grind desk.

Post by MFletch » Fri Mar 01, 2013 11:11 am

Well done on the draft. Simic is seen as maybe even the weakest guilds, though if you are the only one on the pod drafting it obviously it becomes very strong(assume the mirror match came from another pod.)

Firstly:
Witchbane orb destroys your deck.
Boros reckoner+harvest pyre destroys your deck.
Psychic spiral destroys your deck.
Immortal servitude destroys your deck.
Think twice/snap caster destroys your deck.

So you need to main board some answers. Rest in peace as a main board is not a bad option, you can splash for the white.

Dream Twist is a waste of a spell, it hardly speeds up the clock whilst not affecting the board state. Just use your other more major spells to mill, then have other spells to help you to stay alive or control the board state.

I can not see Omniscience being cast, as you need a load of mana to do so. Then most of your spells have x in their mana cost so omniscience is useless.

So less specifics:
You will want a control deck where you stop the opponent from killing you, the mill should be just the killing blow. That is if they do not kill you, you'll just win.
So it is a good idea to have a good number of counter spells, these are rubbish currently. Maybe take 4 dissipates and a single syncopate. Actually sands would better here than mind grind: as you keep mana threatening to counter their spells, then any excess mana you do not use you sink into sands at the end of their turn.

The other, more black method, of staying alive is killing their stuff. Black is awesome for this. What you need/want is spells that kill multiple creatures. So you use one spell to kill multiple of the opponents cards, thus gaining card advantage. There is no good removal spell, so I would opt for a mix of tragic slips, ultimate prices and murders to name a few. Then you want some wrath of god to clear the board of all creatures when things get a little hairy. Try cyclonic rift and mutilate, there may be other good choices.

The final point about staying alive is gaining life. Stopping creatures is one thing but there is a lot of burn spells as well, so trying to regain ground is going to be important. Sphinxs revelation, or maybe rhox faithmender or something to push your life total up whilst also being useful.

Part of you winning will be trying to draw cards. If you draw the same number of cards as the opponent then chances are they will have enough gas to over come you. So to win the long game you see method to gain card advantage be it think twice or sphinx or multiple jaces.

So three different directions I would consider:
You could load up on defenders. This should stop aggro decks easily. fog bank and hover barrier are hard to get around for most decks. Then door keepers can help your plan, whilst door keepers do keep back the likes of boros reckoners. Also you can get an infinite mana combo using defenders so once you get one of your x spells you can kill the enemy straight away.

The other straight option would be crypt ghast sort of deck. Crypt ghast gets you a load of mana, whilst extort keeps you alive. Pump mana into x spell=win. At the moment crypt ghast into grisselbrand or wolf run=win but mill seems equally viable.

On a tangent the third option would be building a straight control deck. So packing it full wraths and counters, just controlling the board. Then having a few drownyards or a jace as the win con.

I love Lazav and Evil twin in the side board. Sands of Delirium I feel is a good tactical mill card, being able to be activated at instant speed, so main board as I suggested earlier please.

Good luck :)

I do agree you will be turned over by aggro decks, but someone else has mentioned that.

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Re: Thoughts on my Dimir Grind desk.

Post by eNi » Fri Mar 01, 2013 4:49 pm

Yeah this is my first standard mill/control deck as i have, in the past, played aggro and beat down decks. so there are a lot of issues with it as you and Zero pointed out. I will have a play and look at some of those cards (still new to gatecrash) and tinker it a bit before posting back.

Also yes it was 2 x 8 man groups for the booster :)
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Re: Thoughts on my Dimir Grind desk.

Post by Zero » Sat Mar 02, 2013 6:52 pm

At my LGS yesterday I watched a few games with a guy playing a UB mill deck. He had Drownyard as a 4-of and used it to mill the opponent at the end of their turn, leaving it open beforehand in case he needed to use the mana to cast Instants. His other main mill card was Jace.

Then he had a plethora of removal spells, including Grisly Spectacle, Tragic Slip, Tribute to Hunger to keep his own life total up, and a few others that I can't remember. He also had a few counter spells, enchantments to slow the opponent down (-1/-1 to all creatures enchanted player controls). I'd think Mutilate would be a solid spell too.

I agree with MFletch though that adding white would make the deck much stronger, especially with the likes of Sphinx's Revelation and Supreme Verdict.
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Re: Thoughts on my Dimir Grind desk.

Post by eNi » Sat Mar 02, 2013 10:44 pm

Deck: Standard Mind Grind

Counts : 60 main / 15 sideboard

Creatures:7
3 Augur of Bolas
3 Fog Bank
1 Consuming Aberration

Spells:26
2 Dispel
2 Increasing Confusion
4 Mind Grind
2 Detention Sphere
2 Dissipate
2 Murder
3 Psychic Strike
2 Sphinx's Revelation
2 Liliana of the Dark Realms
1 Supreme Verdict
4 Jace, Memory Adept

Lands:27
4 Drowned Catacomb
3 Glacial Fortress
10 Island
3 Isolated Chapel
2 Nephalia Drownyard
5 Swamp

Sideboard:15
1 Grafdigger's Cage
2 Dimir Charm
1 Dissipate
1 Murder
1 Psychic Strike
1 Sands of Delirium
1 Sphinx's Revelation
2 Evil Twin
1 Lazav, Dimir Mastermind
1 Whispering Madness
1 Witchbane Orb
1 Consuming Aberration
1 Planar Cleansing


Built with Decked Builder
http://www.deckedbuilder.com

This is where i am at the moment. Feeling better about the deck as a whole but still a few i am uncertain of. The dispel is a card that i think will be fairly good come time to play Sphinx's revalation to stop any counters with only 1 mana meaning i can crank more into my X amount for it. As well as a couple psychic strikes and disipates i think the counter is fairly good now. Couple of detention spheres for more removal/exile and supreme verdict for that board clear.

Lands and sideboard im a bit uncertain of. Not sure if i will really need the reliquary towers in there as i am not drawing a heap but they may come in handy if i ever get jayces ultimate off or a big Revelation.

Also unsure of putting Jace's Phantasm or maybe even Realmwright in there as well.
I will be mainly looking at Mind Grind, Increasing confusion and Jace's -0 ability for a win.
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Re: Thoughts on my Dimir Grind desk.

Post by Zero » Sun Mar 03, 2013 5:13 am

I quite like it. There's probably things you can improve on, but that'll come from play-testing more than anything. The main thing I think is that I'd be running Nephalia Drownyard as a 4-of instead of 2-of.
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Re: Thoughts on my Dimir Grind desk.

Post by eNi » Sun Mar 03, 2013 6:03 am

Yeah I'm wanting to work out kinks before I purchase the cards for it...it costs a bit. :/ lol

Working on another version of it built more around the creature side of milling which opens up the ways I can win and almost turn it into a bit of beat down.

Version 2
Deck: Duskmantle Six

Counts : 60 main / 15 sideboard

Creatures:15
4 Jace's Phantasm
3 Duskmantle Guildmage
4 Wight of Precinct Six
2 Lazav, Dimir Mastermind
2 Consuming Aberration

Spells:21
2 Increasing Confusion
3 Mind Grind
4 Mind Sculpt
2 Ultimate Price
2 Murder
4 Psychic Strike
1 Sands of Delirium
1 Liliana of the Dark Realms
2 Jace, Memory Adept

Lands:24
4 Dimir Guildgate
4 Drowned Catacomb
5 Island
2 Nephalia Drownyard
7 Swamp
2 Watery Grave

Sideboard:15
1 Syncopate
2 Thought Scour
1 Duskmantle Guildmage
1 Mind Grind
2 Negate
2 Redirect
1 Ultimate Price
1 Victim of Night
1 Dimir Keyrune
2 Evil Twin
1 Witchbane Orb


Built with Decked Builder
http://www.deckedbuilder.com
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Re: Thoughts on my Dimir Grind desk.

Post by MFletch » Sun Mar 03, 2013 2:37 pm

I can behind the creature based mill idea. It will keep you alive longer by having them on the board.

On the 2 suggestions above:
dispel is excellent but only as a sideboard option. Most of the time it is blank card.
Then 4 drownyards is asking to be mana screwed, though it is important to see in a game so in the late game you'll wish you had 4.

Again Crypt ghast seems to fit your mana curve and your strategy.
Mind control used to be a good side board option, as such can you play Soul Ransom in the sideboard as really love mind control.

In terms of cost you deck looks cheap. Planeswalkers and dual lands are the only cards of any value.
Any card worth $.49 on star city is just junk, you should go in to your FLGS with your trade folder and then ask for the $.49 cards but then just tell them they can take any junk card from your folder so the trade is on par.
Else if they take interest in a card of yours which is worth something then remind them .49 on star city is a token price as they can not really change less to stay in business but means the card is worthless and bulk. As in treat the price of the .49 cards as .25 and then you probably have a fairer trade.

So mention words like junk and you will be fine with trades. This good advice in general. So when trade for Jace just say chuck in a that junk card there in just to sweeten the deal.

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Re: Thoughts on my Dimir Grind desk.

Post by eNi » Sun Mar 03, 2013 4:37 pm

Yeah I think I will be running with option 2.

I am still anew to creature-less decks so this will be a better transition for me.

I will stick to just 2 nephilia drownyards, I think it is a strong card and will help but it is not a win card when you consider increasing confusion and mind grind are going to be the big mill cards along with jace and sands of delirium.

Obviously the creatures will most often deal the killing blow and should turn beat down towards the late stages of the game.

Cheers for the advice on trades, should pick up most cards for this during the week and get some games happening.

Cheers guys
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Re: Thoughts on my Dimir Grind desk.

Post by MFletch » Sun Mar 03, 2013 6:08 pm

Also on trades look up the price before hand, so you can accept a good deal on the spot before the other person either looks up the price or changes their mind.
Also know the price of the cards on different websites, find the relative cheapest site for your trade. Then pull your iphone and suggest you do trades based on that website, everyone accepts this method: I find this strange as every card trading website has some weird quirks with prices.

I was introduced to mill strategies by that you either you attack life or their library never both. Especially now, having watched a good number of games and played good number, this is not right you attack both and the opponent can only guard against one form of attack - explicitly they can sphinxs for life or try to hold cards back, or they shoot your big creature that is hitting you rather than jace, else against aggro if you stop them killing you then you tend to have different lines on to get the kill.

Do report back. I am really interested in consuming Aberration, it is risky bomb in limited than will can easily win games but grisly spectacle is just a joke.
Consuming Aberration is obviously just a large creature that keeps growing, which may justify its existence. The interesting part is the incidental milling, effects like this where stuff just happens without effort tend to stupidly powerful.
For example Quirion Dryad comes in, you play your usual game and then happen to look down and you have a huge beast.
Or you play Talrand then play the usual blue game of counters, card draw and cool stuff, then you just so happen to have an army of flyers.
Here you can have nearly a normal black/blue sort of control deck, play Consuming Aberration, then play the usual control game and Consuming Aberration just happens to mill your opponent whilst you weren't looking.
Also on my suggestion mutilate, i am pretty sure Consuming Aberration will not die when you cast it, that is so sweet.

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