Style over substance?

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Pazuzu
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Style over substance?

Post by Pazuzu » Wed Aug 14, 2013 3:37 pm

Earlier this week i found myself wanting so start to collect some warmachine,
I posted a thread about an list i put together using eGoreshade, which was promptly torn apart by more experienced cryx players,
So it got me wondering, i chose eGoreshade due to his insanely sweet looking model, and awesome fluff, so my question is, does anyone else sometimes make poor judgments in warmahordes due to looks?
If so what examples?
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baummonster
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Re: Style over substance?

Post by baummonster » Wed Aug 14, 2013 3:46 pm

I wouldn't pay that much attention to alterations posted by other people, unless you're looking for top notch lists

The main purpose is to have fun while playing. Some few have to win games to achieve this, most people luckily don't. So, imho, don't rely so much on other peoples opinions. Play with whatever brings you the most fun and go on from there
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Badger
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Re: Style over substance?

Post by Badger » Thu Aug 15, 2013 9:35 am

Lots of people do. You'll find there's a very vocal group in the WMH community that only play the best models that are played in the hardcore tournament scene. To these people, any other model isn't even worth owning. In time you will learn to quickly identify and tune these people out.

I've heard people say time and time again, Trenchers suck, Wolves of Orboros suck, Stormlances suck, Sloan sucks, Kraye sucks, Grayle sucks, arguses suck, etc etc ad nauseum. Does this stop me from playing them all the time? No. I do quite well with a lot of these models actually, and more importantly I actually have fun.
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Re: Style over substance?

Post by fredbob524 » Sat Aug 17, 2013 10:45 am

Pazuzu wrote:Earlier this week i found myself wanting so start to collect some warmachine,
I posted a thread about an list i put together using eGoreshade, which was promptly torn apart by more experienced cryx players,
So it got me wondering, i chose eGoreshade due to his insanely sweet looking model, and awesome fluff, so my question is, does anyone else sometimes make poor judgments in warmahordes due to looks?
If so what examples?
I apologize if what I said was taken wrong. What I love about this game is player skill can generally trump list making in importance. However if you are new to a faction or equal to lessr skilled then your opponent then list making is important. While almost everything in the game is good, some stuff is currently better. Can you win with other stuff? of course, but it will probably be easier with something like the best caster in the game.
baummonster wrote:I wouldn't pay that much attention to alterations posted by other people, unless you're looking for top notch lists

The main purpose is to have fun while playing. Some few have to win games to achieve this, most people luckily don't. So, imho, don't rely so much on other peoples opinions. Play with whatever brings you the most fun and go on from there
I agree I am some idiot on the forum, I should be given no more heed then anyone else, and far less the some of the amazing players. But I personally enjoy playing the game, and winning only adds to that enjoyment so I try to help others win.
Badger wrote:Lots of people do. You'll find there's a very vocal group in the WMH community that only play the best models that are played in the hardcore tournament scene. To these people, any other model isn't even worth owning. In time you will learn to quickly identify and tune these people out.

I've heard people say time and time again, Trenchers suck, Wolves of Orboros suck, Stormlances suck, Sloan sucks, Kraye sucks, Grayle sucks, arguses suck, etc etc ad nauseum. Does this stop me from playing them all the time? No. I do quite well with a lot of these models actually, and more importantly I actually have fun.
Please don't be like this. This attitude why I left 40k and am immeasurably happy about it. In this game being the most competitive you can be is highly valued and rewarded. Of the models you listed, Wolves are making it into top tier competitive lists, Sloan and Kraye are great just in a faction of amazing casters that they don't stack up as well against. There are optimal choices in this game, I would argue Pagani's Kromac and a solid Morvanha 2 are the best pairing circle can have in a 2 list format. That does not mean I would not be afraid of Cassius, or either Kreuger, Morvhana 1 etc. THis game has an amazing tournament system and updates the rules for it via steamroller every year. It has balanced rules and every faction can compete. Please do not reduce it to only a for fun game (which is not necessarily a bad way to play, just don't be vitriolic about it on the internet.) keep it the best game with the best community on the internets.
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Re: Style over substance?

Post by targetdg15 » Sat Aug 17, 2013 9:50 pm

For me, looks trump usefulness. I spend more time assembling and painting the models than I do using them in the game (painting is just my favorite part). That being said, If your going to spend all that time looking at a model, you better like its appearance :)

Sure, Im not competitive, but thats the beauty of this hobby. Its not JUST about competition, painting, modeling, etc. Its all of them.... and in different capacities.

Ive recently started a Circle of Orboros army and you bet Im just picking beasts by looks! Rather than just buying what other people think works, I look at the models I love and say "How can I acomplish my goals with this beautiful yet oddly matched crew" It makes for hijinks :) Also, sometimes your opponent is as lost as you and doesnt know what to expect... capatalize on that :)

Anyway, all that to say, go with the model you love, play the snot out of it and post an awesome battle report with pics for us all! :)

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Re: Style over substance?

Post by Badger » Sun Aug 18, 2013 5:46 pm

fredbob524 wrote: Please don't be like this. This attitude why I left 40k and am immeasurably happy about it. In this game being the most competitive you can be is highly valued and rewarded. Of the models you listed, Wolves are making it into top tier competitive lists, Sloan and Kraye are great just in a faction of amazing casters that they don't stack up as well against. There are optimal choices in this game, I would argue Pagani's Kromac and a solid Morvanha 2 are the best pairing circle can have in a 2 list format. That does not mean I would not be afraid of Cassius, or either Kreuger, Morvhana 1 etc. THis game has an amazing tournament system and updates the rules for it via steamroller every year. It has balanced rules and every faction can compete. Please do not reduce it to only a for fun game (which is not necessarily a bad way to play, just don't be vitriolic about it on the internet.) keep it the best game with the best community on the internets.
I think you misunderstand what I mean. I'm not advocating against playing to win or being competitive. I'm saying that you don't need to copy the exact list that Will Pagani won whatever tournament with and only ever use those models. You can often play with the models you like and still be competitive, despite the loud outcry from some/many they may not worth using. I'm also sure that there are a couple units that are just outright bad, but I think that list is much shorter than a lot of people think it is.
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Re: Style over substance?

Post by fredbob524 » Mon Aug 19, 2013 4:35 pm

I agree that the list of bad to almost unusable units is very short, headlined by Kossite woodsmen. I also agree and have said before the room for innovation in this game is part of what makes it great. But I think there is a clear difference between room for innovation and player skill, and lists that are just bad. When people started playing menoth without Avatar as a gunline that was innovative, if I play eSorcha with only jacks, thats bad.I think there needs to be a line drawn sometimes, without that making someone, to borrow a 40k term a WAAC ******bag)
Est semper periculum proelium mortis
The is always danger of death in battle.


Si vis pacem, para bellum
If you want peace prepare for war-Hammerofheemporer

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Re: Style over substance?

Post by Mechnomancer » Fri Aug 23, 2013 3:03 am

There is also something to be said about catching an opponent by surprise. Net lists are good, but also well known. Its tricks can be countered and usually are for big tournaments. Of you don't know what you'll see, you practice against the net lists. My friend qualified for masters at GenCon using eShade, Witch Coven, and Gaspy3. None of these are considered to be the best in Cryx.

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Stephen
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Re: Style over substance?

Post by Stephen » Sun Aug 25, 2013 7:20 pm

If you plan on going to Steamroller tournys or anything along those lines then it would help to build a list that is designed with a winning game plan in mind. But if you are a wargamer who is more concerned with the hobby aspect then you should build an army based on what you like. That being said it is possible to combine both if you have an open mind and are willing to 'mold' the idea of your army. What kind of models and fluff are you shooting for? Be warned I have very limited experience with Cryx so I don't have the best advice.
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Re: Style over substance?

Post by ArqArturo » Sun Aug 25, 2013 9:10 pm

Depends. A friday night game is great to try around new things, or get your favorite list because it just looks cool. for Journeyman, it's better to start optimizing in order to get the better of it.
“In fighting and in everyday life you should be determined though calm. Meet the situation without tenseness yet not recklessly, your spirit settled yet unbiased...” Miyamoto Musashi

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Re: Style over substance?

Post by Mechnomancer » Mon Aug 26, 2013 2:27 am

Well, a journeyman league is easy. You're stuck with the battlebox for 3-4 weeks. Week two ups the points to 15 which lets you play around with 1. Machine Wraith is really the only option. After that, you only really get enough points to add essential solos. Sirens, Skarlock, whatever. Then you can change casters, but still keep the battle box. Your options are still pretty limited. Most casters don't need 3 arc nodes. Ghaspy1 and Scaverous are all I can think of. Week 5 is when you truly get to optimize.

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Re: Style over substance?

Post by JP_is_here » Sun Sep 08, 2013 1:02 pm

What amazes me is that while players poo-poo all over things as "sucking", more and more unconventional lists that use less popular models are winning major tournament events.

Then that winning list is seen all over the place and heralded as the best.

It's the player, not the model, more then anything in this game.

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Re: Style over substance?

Post by Mechnomancer » Mon Sep 09, 2013 12:17 am

And thus you have found the drawback to "net" lists. I firmly believe that most of the people posting in various forums don't actually play the game.

Also, luck plays way more of a factor than I ever thought.

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Re: Style over substance?

Post by potato32 » Mon Sep 09, 2013 1:18 am

It is chess where two pawns can end up facing across one another and never succeed in beating the other one. Where the queen getting a straight access to the King might just find herself killed by the knight after she falls short. Where you can move your opponent's tiles so the bishop gets his access to the King or some other key piece...
I have horrible luck in warmahorde. How many times did I get a knocked down caster with 2-3 units to strike at it... only to roll no more than five on three dices...
No worries, I learned to melt dices to make bases for my figurines.

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Re: Style over substance?

Post by ArqArturo » Mon Sep 09, 2013 10:28 am

As a Khador player, I always feel mobbed, especially when fighting Cryx, when I'm swimming in a sea of mechanithralls, but, when it comes to king of the hill, or any objective marker game, it's easier for me to survive the assault.

When playing Menoth, however, it feels like I'm playing in easy mode XD.
“In fighting and in everyday life you should be determined though calm. Meet the situation without tenseness yet not recklessly, your spirit settled yet unbiased...” Miyamoto Musashi

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