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 Post subject: Command Barge / Chariot
PostPosted: Fri Jul 13, 2012 9:16 pm 
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I just have to say, I'm really enjoying the new Chariot rules.

Last night my Command Barge managed to take out an Eldar Falcon all on it's own with the assault attack.

I'm just curious if we did this right though...

- Command Barge Assaults the Falcon, making hull to hull contact.
- Barge makes D6 (I rolled a 4) Strength 6 hits on Falcon's rear armour. We assumed that the barge hits rear armour since it's an assault attack in base contact, but we couldn't find a rule (at the time) actually saying that this was the case. If anyone can confirm, I'd appreciate it.
- The Falcon had already lost a hull point, and the Barge's attacks ended up glancing it twice more to cause a wreck.
- We assumed that the Overlord in the barge couldn't then assault the Fire Dragons inside since we figured that all of the assault attacks would happen at the same time. We weren't sure whether the Chariot's attack would go first, and then the Overlord and Fire Dragons would get pile-in moves as part of the assault (our reasoning was based on the fact that the Falcon and the Fire Dragons are different units, similar to how you can't shoot passengers once you blow up a transport with a second gun firing from the same vehicle).

Can anyone see somewhere in that scenario where we did things wrong? This was my second 6th ed game so it's completely possible I'm not doing something properly..


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PostPosted: Sat Jul 14, 2012 3:59 am 
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Interesting question: Can we pile in onto a new combat?

No thats not possible. So if you destroy the transport you cannot continue to pile in to a new combat with the unit inside. But You are right that the first attack is at I10 and then the Lord piles in at I2. But you have to leave 1" distance from the unit inside.


Attacks from the Barge are against rear armor as CC attacks always go against rear armor no rules stating something different for chariots (p.76)

Command barge can make hulltohull contact or base to hull contact to get into CC with the vehicle. (p.82)

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 16, 2012 10:25 am 
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I posted this on another thread, but it covers most of the stuff for the Command Barge. It is one of the most complicated little vehicles out there with all those special rules...

Quote:
One thing that changed is Flat Out or Turbo Boost is like a Run during the shooting phase. The Command Barge is now a Chariot (p82 in the new 6th edition book), Fast, Skimmer, Jink, Sweeping Attacks, transport, Open topped, and has Quantum Shields, Living Metal, and Symbiotic Repair.

Movement: Almost all vehicles can move 12" a fast skimmer follows the normal rules, but can move over obstacles and if it starts or ends its movement in difficult terrain it must take a Dangerous Terrain test (Roll a D6 and on a 1 it is Immobilized).

Sweeping Attack: During the movement phase you can do special attack on anything you flew over. You get your normal number of attacks and you hit on a 3+ if you moved 6" or less or a 4+ if you moved more than 6" (max 12" remember). Resolve these hits with any hand to hand weapons or bonuses you normally have for the rider. Against vehicles use the rear armor. This also has Precision Strike, so on a to hit roll of 6 you can pick the model in the unit and as this is basically a hand to hand attack you get no cover saves.

Shooting Phase: You can either go Flat out (move up to another 18" more but not be able to fire the rider's or barges weapons), or shoot the Tesla Cannon (or Gauss Cannon) on the Barge normally. Since this is an Open Topped Transport the rider can shoot also but if the vehicle moved Combat Speed (up to 6") the rider gets a normal BS shot (counts as moving), but if the moved Cruising speed (over 6" max of 12") the rider only makes Snap Shots.

Assault: If you did not go Flat Out you may do a normal charge like troops do. You charge the normal 2D6", you gain 1D6 Hammer of Wrath hits (S6 AP- I10,) and the rider fights normal round of close combat (with the normal +1A for the Assault), but ignore challenges. The rider gets a +1 to his armor save. While on the Vehicle the rider is Fearless and will not run. Also the vehicle is not locked in combat so you can move away during your next turn (as well as the enemy unit during their turn if they wish). Technically you can only hit or be hit by models you are touching with the barge (and not the usual within 2") and it does not say if they can attack the Barge, so I would say all attacks would have to target the rider. I think they need an errata for this.

Extras: The vehicle has Quantum Shields on the front and side, so until a Penetrating hit is rolled it has +2AV to its front and side armor. Living Metal lets you ignore Crew Shaken on a 2+ and Crew Stunned on a 4+, and Symbiotic Repair lets the rider take a wound instead of the vehicle taking a HP, Immobilized, or Weapon Destroyed. Being Open Topped means you suffer a +1 on the vehicle damage chart, but if you disembark you can still assault that turn. Jink gives you a 5+ cover save, 4+ if going Flat Out.

Notes: Yes when Shooting at a vehicle you normally hit the side facing you and in hand to hand you always strike the rear armor. You can also be cheesy and move just over the edge of a vehicle or unit pilot 180' and move back and pilot 180' again so you are 1" away, do your Sweeping Attacks, shoot, and then charge.


Yes you are not locked in combat with the unit in the vehicle if you assault the vehicle, but if you pop a vehicle in the movement or shooting phase you can of course assault the passengers in the assault phase if you want.

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PostPosted: Tue Jul 17, 2012 10:44 am 
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Todda wrote:
it does not say if they can attack the Barge, so I would say all attacks would have to target the rider. I think they need an errata for this.


Todda, Nice summary. I do have one point of contention.

I completely agree that we need some rules clarifications here, but the way I read it, it does not explicitly say the unit cannot attack the Barge, so why wouldn't they be able to?

The chariot should be treated as a normal vehicle in close combat, with the exceptions noted in the rulebook (as you quoted above), which does not include anything saying the Chariot cannot be attacked in close combat.

It is unlike shooting, where it explicitly says, you cannot target the rider.

The lack of any verbiage leads me to believe you are able to attack either the Barge or the Rider.

To me this opens up a nice bit of tactics where perhaps you need to precision allocate all those 6's your overlord rolls to kill off any power fists before they get a chance to pop that transport. (obviously situational)

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PostPosted: Thu Jul 19, 2012 3:57 pm 
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Well sort of. You are technically correct that you are in base to base contact with both and both are from the same unit. According to the wound allocations (p25) you must apply the wounds to the closest model and the defender chooses which if they are the same. This means he could force strength three attacks against the Barge as they can not hurt it, but typically his 5T, 2+ armor save, and 3W is enough to hold off many attacks

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PostPosted: Fri Jul 20, 2012 10:34 am 
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Great Point! Here is another tactical application I haven't seem much of online.

Charging with an empty Chariot.

Here is the scenario:

I have an OL in the command barge who has just swooped over a marine unit, and has now disembarked.

In the following assault phase, the OL charges the remaining tac squad members, and the Chariot (which is it's own unit) "assaults" the nearby rhino. Essentially tank shocking, but using the HoW mechanic to resolve the hits, therefor making the chariot immune to the normally impending ram.

Does this work? I do not see anywhere in the chariot rules where it says the chariot must have a passenger to assault. I only see special rules, should there be a passenger.

I thought of this last night as I was playing. I didn't use it (again very situational), but I feel like that's a cool back pocket tool you can use sometime to throw down some surprise hits.

If it can, the we can swoop... disembark, shoot, and assault two separate units, again it's situational, but it makes that already high-priority target even more useful. We have to get every inch of worth out of it before the enemy pops it.

thoughts? maybe i missed some really obvious thing and it cannot do this, but to me if it can... this could be very useful.

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PostPosted: Fri Jul 20, 2012 10:34 am 
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double post - please ignore

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Last edited by Gangrel767 on Fri Jul 20, 2012 10:35 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Mon Aug 06, 2012 11:29 am 
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Gangrel767 wrote:
Charging with an empty Chariot.

In the following assault phase, the OL charges the remaining tac squad members, and the Chariot (which is it's own unit) "assaults" the nearby rhino. Essentially tank shocking, but using the HoW mechanic to resolve the hits, therefor making the chariot immune to the normally impending ram.


That is very interesting. I don't think that would be violating any rules either.

But here's an even more interesting scenario. What if the Overlord disembarks, locks down the unit he's assaulting, and then the Chariot continually backups and smashes into them again during each Necron turn? The assaulted unit would get free hits at it during their turn since it would still be in base contact, but that would give you an extra D6 S6 attacks each time the Chariot charged.


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 06, 2012 12:06 pm 
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Todda wrote:
Well sort of. You are technically correct that you are in base to base contact with both and both are from the same unit. According to the wound allocations (p25) you must apply the wounds to the closest model and the defender chooses which if they are the same. This means he could force strength three attacks against the Barge as they can not hurt it, but typically his 5T, 2+ armor save, and 3W is enough to hold off many attacks



OK, I have had time to let this germinate a little and while I love where your head is at, I can't seem to get passed the actual operation of it.

Let's say we assaulted a ten man tactical squad, with a sergeant with a power fist. We slammed into him and now it is my opponents initiative step. He attacks me... majority WS 4, now how does he handle the "to wound" roll. Obviously if it is my choice (per wound allocation rules), I choose the chariot because his normal tac marines cannot hurt it (let's assume they're not using grenades for this example). BUT I don't get to choose until the number of wounds is accumulated.

Now on the final initiative step he will attack me with the powerfist, but i want to allocated those wounds to the OL.

How do we do this? Since wound allocation is always done after the to wound roll (or armour pene roll) is resolved.

Is there some sort of "majority Toughness" thing happening here? I just need this spelled out for me more clearly. Please.

I want this to work, but I must be able to explain it clearly to my opponents, and right now I get lost in it and frankly I haven't assault with one yet, because I don't know how to resolve this.

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PostPosted: Wed Aug 08, 2012 12:42 pm 
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since the chariot is a vehicle, it would make sense that it could only tank shock if its empty counting as a regular vehicle
BUT if there were an IC embarked in it then it would be able to charge into close combat( with the IC directing it into CC)
as we all know vehicles cant assault but would be nice to an FAQ


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 08, 2012 5:51 pm 
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l2k007 wrote:
since the chariot is a vehicle, it would make sense that it could only tank shock if its empty counting as a regular vehicle


Chariot =/= Tank

The Command Barge is not a tank and therefor cannot Tank Shock.

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