It is currently Sun Nov 23, 2014 5:53 pm

All times are UTC - 5 hours




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 29 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2  Next
Author Message
 Post subject: why no love for....
PostPosted: Mon Apr 16, 2012 11:21 pm 
Offline
MiniWarGaming Beginner

Joined: Mon Feb 27, 2012 4:14 pm
Posts: 45
Location: the Rocky mountains
I'm a long time ork player who was wowed by the new dark eldar release and decided to make them my next army, once I finished painting my orks that is. With the end in sight for painting my orks I bought a dark codex and just finished reading it, and now i was wondering why don't people like certain weapons, wargear or units. I see alot of lists with beastmasters but no clawed fiends, the stat line looks good and number of attacks is impressive? Why doesn't anyone take a shredder, it's cheap and nasty (str6 blast for 5 pts)?


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: why no love for....
PostPosted: Mon Apr 16, 2012 11:26 pm 
Offline
Lives, breathes, and eats MiniWarGaming
User avatar

Joined: Sun Jul 03, 2011 9:52 pm
Posts: 1278
Either points costs or opportunity cost.
The clawed fiend could be considered, as he helps with wound allocation tricks, but through trying things out, people realize that even without it, the beast units do well, and that thing costs a ton.
The shredder is not as liked due to competing with the blasters in the units who can take them, even though it's not a bad weapon.
We need blasters and anti-infantry isn't an issue for us.
Anti-tank is something we can easily struggle with and alot of list building revolves around getting the right amount, or type, of it.
If you wanna know about more units and options, go ahead and ask!
And welcome to the DE subforums. :mrgreen:

_________________
Fear is pain arising from the anticipation of evil. - Aristotle


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: why no love for....
PostPosted: Mon Apr 16, 2012 11:38 pm 
Offline
MiniWarGaming Beginner

Joined: Mon Feb 27, 2012 4:14 pm
Posts: 45
Location: the Rocky mountains
well whats up with liquifiers? A lot of warbosses say random ap kills flash gitz and yet DE players don't mind it for a template weapon. With all the lists that feature a helion handoff (pain token) hemy, why not take a hex rifle and fall back to a wrack objective camper and shoot?


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: why no love for....
PostPosted: Mon Apr 16, 2012 11:49 pm 
Offline
Epic MiniWarGaming Poster, 'nuff said
User avatar

Joined: Sat Apr 26, 2008 9:07 pm
Posts: 9174
Location: Ontario, Canada
Hexrifles are mediocre at best and in most cases you want the Haemonculus to move up and make himself useful. A Liquifier is fantastic, any flamer is pretty good to have around, how can you argue with a flamer that has 50% of ignoring power armour?


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: why no love for....
PostPosted: Mon Apr 16, 2012 11:50 pm 
Offline
Lives, breathes, and eats MiniWarGaming
User avatar

Joined: Sun Jul 03, 2011 9:52 pm
Posts: 1278
The hex rifles arn't all that great. They're basically useless against one-wound models and the more wounds the target has, the easier it is to pass the test.
Also we have better ways of dealing with anything that's got wounds on it and not armor values.. especially the big scary monsters. Why do you think nids hate us?

Liquifiers are flamers, so auto-hit.
Str 4 is decent flamer str and usually trooper flamers will have AP 5 or worse in general (I'm guessing). There's only a 1 in 3 chance of that happening, and the other 2 out of 3 times the AP will be 4 or lower.
Not too shabby for the amount of points.

_________________
Fear is pain arising from the anticipation of evil. - Aristotle


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: why no love for....
PostPosted: Tue Apr 17, 2012 12:19 am 
Offline
Lost in the MiniWarGaming world...
User avatar

Joined: Thu Jan 08, 2009 11:16 pm
Posts: 3269
Ribbons Earned: Group Build Badge #9Completed a 'Mini of the Month' Entry
It's likely that with the new edition, people will start to shift their weapon preferences, but the fact of the matter is that many weapons currently just don't do what you think they might do.

Hexrifles, for example. Most armies simply don't have multi-wound characters. A few Space Marine commanders, a few Warbosses. Hexrifles might be good against Tyranids, but with so many creatures with 6 wounds, they won't be very likely to fail that wounds test, so the points you sink into that won't make themselves back, especially if you're only doing one shot a turn at best. Taking more Hexrifles to try and get a better chance at killing big Tyranids is list-tailoring, and the effectiveness against most other armies is going to shoot straight down.

Liquifier guns are great especially if you get a bunch of them in one Wrack squad with a Haemonculus. Each liquifier rolls its own AP, which gives you a higher chance to get an AP1 or AP2 hit that will ignore Terminator armor (1/3rd of the time you can get this!) and force some less-than-favorable saves. The reason they tend to not work on Flash Gitz is because, and correct me if I'm wrong, most Orks are BS3 or worse, which doesn't bode well for accuracy. When you can auto-hit 5 models under a single template, you're immediately doing better than *maybe* hitting five models with Flash Gitz weapons. The other problem is the cost. Liquifiers are super cheap compared to a Flash Gitz.

Then the Shredders. I foresee Shredders becoming much more popular in the future as vehicles get nerfed and footslogging squads become more important. Str6 is great, especially in template form against squads of guys trying to huddle in cover, and DE have the BS to back it up, so you typically minimize scatter. The trouble right now is that most people would rather take a Blaster for that extra chance to pop a transport and shoot at the juicy things inside.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: why no love for....
PostPosted: Tue Apr 17, 2012 3:42 am 
Offline
Epic MiniWarGaming Poster, 'nuff said
User avatar

Joined: Sat Nov 28, 2009 4:41 am
Posts: 7974
Location: Wollongong, Australia
Small Blast weapons also just aren't particularly great. Yeah, it might hit 3 guys (at most, mind you), but it might scatter and hit 1, or worse yet, none. Then by taking the Shedder over the Blaster, you're kind of screwed in that situation when a Dreadnought or whatever is making its way to the objective your Warriors are camping and everything else is either wrecked or trying to deal with its own problems. Blasters are also decent anti-infantry, because a hit is an almost guaranteed kill.

_________________
What matters creative endless toil
When, at a snatch, oblivion ends the coil?

My awesome blog of awesomeness.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: why no love for....
PostPosted: Tue Apr 17, 2012 9:21 am 
Offline
MiniWarGaming Beginner

Joined: Mon Feb 27, 2012 4:14 pm
Posts: 45
Location: the Rocky mountains
ah the roll separately for liquifiers makes all the difference, the entire ork dex is roll variables for the entire group, so its ethier full of fail or super overkill. Whats the deal with Grots they look like the Dreffdread of DE. (dreads have good stats but kanz do the same job for cheaper)


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: why no love for....
PostPosted: Tue Apr 17, 2012 2:51 pm 
Offline
MiniWarGaming Grand Marshall
User avatar

Joined: Wed Sep 29, 2010 5:35 pm
Posts: 4395
Location: Toronto, Ontario
Unless there are some massive changes to either how shooting, or how assaulting works, I do not see Shredders gaining popularity at all.

There are, and always have been, a number of issues with the way the Shredder works and how it synergizes with its unit.

First of all, it has no AP, and while this may be fine against Orks, it means that those Imperial Guard, Dark Eldar, or Eldar Guardians still have a 33% chance of surviving the hit, which is like the difference between BS2 and BS4 on solid-shot weapons.

Against vehicles, an otherwise decent weapon (S6 is nothing to sneeze at) becomes absolutely garbage, because even if you do get that small chance of glancing or penetrating the vehicle, you take an additional -1 modifier to an already tough damage table.

Secondly, its range of 12" means that you're having to leave a non-combat unit within charge range of their enemy for a full turn, or the splinter rifle, something you didn't pay a single point for, is better.

Thirdly, it fills a role that doesn't need filling. We are the Dark Eldar, killing modes with a toughness value is our specialty - we hardly need to take a weapon as specialized as the Shredder to do something we are already fully proficient in.

Finally, you can only take one in a unit, unless you are willing to waste your Trueborn on them. With the squad shooting rules, you could at least have stacked a few wounds on the squad and force some more saves before they get to start removing models.

Until these four main points are adressed, Shredders will remain second fiddle to the blaster, regardless of what happens to the metagame.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: why no love for....
PostPosted: Tue Apr 17, 2012 4:27 pm 
Offline
Epic MiniWarGaming Poster, 'nuff said
User avatar

Joined: Sat Nov 28, 2009 4:41 am
Posts: 7974
Location: Wollongong, Australia
Chief wrote:
Unless there are some massive changes to either how shooting, or how assaulting works, I do not see Shredders gaining popularity at all.

There are, and always have been, a number of issues with the way the Shredder works and how it synergizes with its unit.

First of all, it has no AP, and while this may be fine against Orks, it means that those Imperial Guard, Dark Eldar, or Eldar Guardians still have a 33% chance of surviving the hit, which is like the difference between BS2 and BS4 on solid-shot weapons.

Against vehicles, an otherwise decent weapon (S6 is nothing to sneeze at) becomes absolutely garbage, because even if you do get that small chance of glancing or penetrating the vehicle, you take an additional -1 modifier to an already tough damage table.

Secondly, its range of 12" means that you're having to leave a non-combat unit within charge range of their enemy for a full turn, or the splinter rifle, something you didn't pay a single point for, is better.

Thirdly, it fills a role that doesn't need filling. We are the Dark Eldar, killing modes with a toughness value is our specialty - we hardly need to take a weapon as specialized as the Shredder to do something we are already fully proficient in.

Finally, you can only take one in a unit, unless you are willing to waste your Trueborn on them. With the squad shooting rules, you could at least have stacked a few wounds on the squad and force some more saves before they get to start removing models.

Until these four main points are adressed, Shredders will remain second fiddle to the blaster, regardless of what happens to the metagame.

Well if rumours for the new addition have any kind of truth to them, and they keep certain parts as they are, then Blast weapons will not scatter as normal, but rather you roll To Hit using the models BS, and if it's a hit, then the Blast lands right where you want it to. If you miss, it scatters.

They also may change how you damage vehicles, with everything receiving a -1 modifier against Tanks except AP1 and AP- (Lances also receive no - or + modifier, so they'll remain as is).

But that's all, so there are still 2 points to address, and these are only rumours at that and may not even be true.

_________________
What matters creative endless toil
When, at a snatch, oblivion ends the coil?

My awesome blog of awesomeness.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: why no love for....
PostPosted: Tue Apr 17, 2012 5:03 pm 
Offline
MiniWarGaming Beginner

Joined: Mon Feb 27, 2012 4:14 pm
Posts: 45
Location: the Rocky mountains
Okay.. so even though shredders are cheap and nasty they just have no place in the DE dex, because every other choice is better, I guess the same could be said of disintegrators? Which is interesting, people complain about Dark Lances Failing them all the time, and I read a White Dwarf battle report that had a x3 disintegrator ravenger which did very well for itself.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: why no love for....
PostPosted: Tue Apr 17, 2012 5:54 pm 
Offline
MiniWarGaming Grand Marshall
User avatar

Joined: Wed Sep 29, 2010 5:35 pm
Posts: 4395
Location: Toronto, Ontario
Don't waste your time with White Dwarf for tactics - the players rarely know what they're doing, and their lists are designed to show off model lines, not for efficiency.

Disintegrators replace Dark Lances, and the only type of target they will perform well against is meq and teq, both targets well covered in other parts of the codex, whereas Dark Lances are our only source of long ranged anti-tank and (effective) instant death, while being much better monster hunters.

I suppose if you know exactly what your opponent is bringing and you feel like being a massive douche, they work against pure terminator builds, but otherwise you are giving up far too much in an all-comers build to get a unit that will only perform against a single (fairly uncommon) build.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: why no love for....
PostPosted: Tue Apr 17, 2012 5:59 pm 
Offline
Epic MiniWarGaming Poster, 'nuff said
User avatar

Joined: Sat Nov 28, 2009 4:41 am
Posts: 7974
Location: Wollongong, Australia
yoho1.5 wrote:
ravenger

It's spelt 'Ravager'. Think of the word 'ravage' and add an 'r' to the end. Sorry, it's just a pet-hate of mine :P

yoho1.5 wrote:
Okay.. so even though shredders are cheap and nasty they just have no place in the DE dex, because every other choice is better, I guess the same could be said of disintegrators? Which is interesting, people complain about Dark Lances Failing them all the time, and I read a White Dwarf battle report that had a x3 disintegrator ravenger which did very well for itself.

Dark Lances do fail all the time, which is exactly why we need so many of them. If you only have one Ravager with Dark Lances, and those Dark Lances fail, what are you going to do? That's all of your anti-tank gone. Instead, you give all of your vehicles Dark Lances, so when a couple fail, you still have a few others to try and pull through.

White Dwarf isn't exactly the greatest place for tactical advice. Their lists don't really have any vehicles or anti-tank, so they can get away with things like Disintegrator Ravagers and WWP Archons. They also play multiple games for the White Dwarf until they get one that's interesting enough, so what worked in the battle report you read may have failed every other time.

_________________
What matters creative endless toil
When, at a snatch, oblivion ends the coil?

My awesome blog of awesomeness.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: why no love for....
PostPosted: Wed Apr 18, 2012 12:12 am 
Offline
Epic MiniWarGaming Poster, 'nuff said
User avatar

Joined: Mon Jan 30, 2012 10:17 pm
Posts: 6774
Location: Clarksville, TN
Ribbons Earned: Won a monthly Terrain Group BuildWon 3 monthly Terrain Group BuildsMASTER BUILDER! Won 5 monthly Terrain Group Builds!Has Completed 1 Terrain Group Build entryHas Completed 3 Terrain Group Build entriesHas Completed 5 Terrain Group Build entriesHas Completed 10 Terrain Group Build entriesHas Completed 15 Terrain Group Build entriesHas Completed 20 Terrain Group Build entriesHas Completed 5 Painting PledgesHas Completed 10 Painting PledgesHas Completed 25 Painting PledgesHas Completed 50 Painting PledgesHas Completed 100 Painting Pledges!Took part in a Painting Deathmatch Headline EventWon a Painting Deathmatch Side ChallengeCompleted a Painting Deathmatch Side Challenge EntryCompleted a 'Mini of the Month' EntryWon the second 'King of the Hill' challengesWon the third 'King of the Hill' challengesAwarded the Awesome Medal of Awesomeness!
Zero wrote:
yoho1.5 wrote:
ravenger

It's spelt 'Ravager'. Think of the word 'ravage' and add an 'r' to the end. Sorry, it's just a pet-hate of mine :P


I thought we transport prisoners, not wheat? :)

_________________
Everyday is better than the next...

DE: 9292pts/9122 painted llllllllll

DE WIP: viewtopic.php?f=58&t=76171
Terrain Log: viewtopic.php?f=7&t=80134


Last edited by Nappen on Thu Apr 19, 2012 9:52 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: why no love for....
PostPosted: Wed Apr 18, 2012 9:47 am 
Offline
Epic MiniWarGaming Poster, 'nuff said
User avatar

Joined: Mon Jan 30, 2012 10:17 pm
Posts: 6774
Location: Clarksville, TN
Ribbons Earned: Won a monthly Terrain Group BuildWon 3 monthly Terrain Group BuildsMASTER BUILDER! Won 5 monthly Terrain Group Builds!Has Completed 1 Terrain Group Build entryHas Completed 3 Terrain Group Build entriesHas Completed 5 Terrain Group Build entriesHas Completed 10 Terrain Group Build entriesHas Completed 15 Terrain Group Build entriesHas Completed 20 Terrain Group Build entriesHas Completed 5 Painting PledgesHas Completed 10 Painting PledgesHas Completed 25 Painting PledgesHas Completed 50 Painting PledgesHas Completed 100 Painting Pledges!Took part in a Painting Deathmatch Headline EventWon a Painting Deathmatch Side ChallengeCompleted a Painting Deathmatch Side Challenge EntryCompleted a 'Mini of the Month' EntryWon the second 'King of the Hill' challengesWon the third 'King of the Hill' challengesAwarded the Awesome Medal of Awesomeness!
next thing you know instead of grisly trophies we will have fishing nets or fishing rods :)

_________________
Everyday is better than the next...

DE: 9292pts/9122 painted llllllllll

DE WIP: viewtopic.php?f=58&t=76171
Terrain Log: viewtopic.php?f=7&t=80134


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 29 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2  Next

All times are UTC - 5 hours


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group