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PostPosted: Sat Mar 31, 2012 8:38 pm 
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commando_jim wrote:
4 or 5 Railguns is an insane amount of very strong long range firepower, A Railgun can easily take down a Rhino on the First turn with Alpha strike, neutralizing the unit inside and letting the Tau pick them off easily. The only thing a railgun will not consistently take out each turn is a Land raider. The strongest Gunline shouldn't need to be highly mobile, you pack enough Alpha strike punch to remove the enemy mobility. Of course Railguns are not as good whilst shooting infantry, the same way Lascannons are rather inept against Infantry. They should be used to take out Heavy armored stuff, like Rhino's, Terminators etc. Once those are all dead, then you can turn them on infantry. Let your Fire warriors , which have a damned good weapon, and most Tau seem to want to go to BS4.

It just shows, just because a unit can get cover doesn't mean that every unit in the army should need it to be able to actively cross the board. If your army can consistently kill off anything without a cover save, your army is broken as hell.


The Railgun is costed proportional to its efficacy compared with the Lascannon, which can be spammed quite readily, or various other vehicle mounted weapons which can be fielded in equal or greater numbers.

Rhinos are tiny models for what they do, they're quite possibly the easiest tank to hide in the game. Tau already have highly effective alpha strike capability against Rhinos anyway: Our basic weapon can take them out, and the battlesuit Missile Pods are even better at it. The changes outlined change little about that, Rhinos just don't last long against Tau without their little coversave-smoke launcher manoeuvre or their aforementioned size advantage being able to take greater use of terrain than practically every other vehicle in the game.

Fire Warriors at BS4 made sense to me originally, but it doesn't anymore. They're not trained to the extent that they're the same as Space Marines, nor is their technology capable of controlling their own bodies (which is the case for battlesuits).

All your complaints about the Railgun are in-game right now in effect, the buffs in other areas are to make up for the fact that the Tau are overpriced at the moment in many areas (Crisis suits, pathfinders, Stealth teams, Skyrays, Devilfish to a certain extent). Admittedly, I have gone overboard in some areas, but this is what this discussion thread is for. Railguns aren't an area where I think that is the case though, they remain well balanced according to their costs.

The army can't consistently kill off anything without a cover save, and practically all armies have weapons that render units stuck in the open as extremely vulnerable. Tau don't even have the most devastating or numerous weapons in that regard either.

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PostPosted: Sat Mar 31, 2012 10:32 pm 
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The issue is that Broadsides and Crisis Suits are currently underpriced. Increase the price-efficiency of other units to a competitive level, and suddenly that becomes very apparent in the Tau codex.

Can you imagine a Space Wolves or Imperial Guard codex with Lash of Submission?
Or Grey Knights or Blood Angels with access to Eldrad?

Sometimes underpowered codexes do have a few underpriced units in them, even 4th edition ones.


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PostPosted: Sat Mar 31, 2012 10:59 pm 
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Crisis suits are not currently underpriced in any sense of the word, their price is generally very much in line with the capabilities you can give them via the options.

Can they bounce in and out of terrain? Yes, but they are very large models, their ballistics skill is bizarrely low, their armour save is inferior, they have no invul save, and their upgrades can get very expensive if you go mad with them. They're not as overpriced as some people think (hence the points increase in this codex to compensate for BS/Save increase), but to call them underpriced is just wrong.

Broadsides might be considered underpriced mainly because of the comparison with the Hammerhead Railgun. A Broadside is a walking twin-linked railgun with battlesuit statlines, for about 75-80 points a piece (including the compulsory system choice). The Hammerhead railgun on its own is 50 points, and it isn't twin-linked. The Hammerhead does gain submunitions as a bonus, but it still means the Broadside is effectively undercosted by 5-10 pts a pieces really.

The reason I have not increased the price is that the Broadsides are very very slow, which means there are many more ways to deal with them than a Hammerhead or a Crisis team. You can hide from them in ways you can't hide from the mobile elements.

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PostPosted: Sat Mar 31, 2012 11:47 pm 
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The problem with all this hiding you want us to do, is when are we moving up the board?
You seem to be under the impression that the board is one big piece of area terrain.

This comes back to my argument earlier - why are we doing all the work?
Surely 40k does not need another point and click codex, with it's author simply saying "let the other codices find a way to work around them". I really think Tau should undergo a general range drop.

PS. 2+ saves is huge, and even you have to admit that a 2 wound Terminator with JSJ capabilities for which the entire squad can get (and fire) two special weapons is worth more than 35 points per model.

You can't tell me a 5 point 4+ cover save on all your vehicles is not overpowered, or that a Twin-Linked S10 AP1 gun, with the option of Markerlight boosts on a chassy as nice as the broadside is worth as much as an obliterator.


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PostPosted: Sun Apr 01, 2012 12:25 am 
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Chief wrote:
The problem with all this hiding you want us to do, is when are we moving up the board?
You seem to be under the impression that the board is one big piece of area terrain.

This comes back to my argument earlier - why are we doing all the work?
Surely 40k does not need another point and click codex, with it's author simply saying "let the other codices find a way to work around them". I really think Tau should undergo a general range drop.

PS. 2+ saves is huge, and even you have to admit that a 2 wound Terminator with JSJ capabilities for which the entire squad can get (and fire) two special weapons is worth more than 35 points per model.

You can't tell me a 5 point 4+ cover save on all your vehicles is not overpowered, or that a Twin-Linked S10 AP1 gun, with the option of Markerlight boosts on a chassy as nice as the broadside is worth as much as an obliterator.

Hiding while advancing from Broadsides isn't *that* hard, it's not like they have invul saves naturally either, they have to hide to a certain extent themselves, and aren't tall enough to look over buildings etc.

The opponent isn't doing all the work. The Tau need to place their blocking units and mobile elements in proper forward positions, and the more static units in good firing lanes. They then need to coordinate these elements for victory. Just because you have strong shooting doesn't mean you win all the time.

Tau getting a range drop would make them entirely impossible to play as an army, they have practically zero melee capability, they need to be able to shoot things.

You can't cost Crisis suits without their weaponry, the base suit is illegal to play, not to mention entirely unreflective of their actual abilities when they do have a weapon or two. 30-35 points may be low, but at that price, they have no weapons, they have no invul save, they have no support systems, they have no team leader/shas'vre to help with leadership, etc. The base cost reflects the basic defensive and natural capabilties of the model, without the weapons cost attached, it's meaningless to compare them to Terminators. To put the cost in perspective, a Grey Knight Paladin is 55 points standard, whereas the best anti-heavy infantry setup the Crisis suit can have is rocking in at 75pts minimum. Only addition of a Psycannon really places the Paladin on equal footing, and the Paladin is one of the deadliest melee units in the game in addition to having that cannon option to make it have awesome shooting. The Crisis suit has average melee and has mobility instead.

As unfortunate as it may be to have to compare the pricing to Grey Knights' units, that's the way the price efficiencies have gone.

Disruption pods exist because Tau vehicles are bloody chunky, struggle to find cover saves anyway, and we don't have access to armour 14 stuff or Eldar trickery. Broadsides in their most basic form are worth the same as Obliterators, they can't deepstrike, they have only two weapons, they have no natural invul save and their close combat abilities are lower. So yeah, I can tell you that both of them are reasonably well costed (apart from the aforementioned Broadside complaint that I dismissed on the basis of their mobility).

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PostPosted: Sun Apr 01, 2012 6:30 am 
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Oh, I thought you were going to try to write a well-balanced, playable army, not show us what Mat Ward would do with the codex if he got his hands on it.

Battlesuits shouldn't have a 2+ save. That's ridiculous. Terminators, whose armour would be as thick as a Battlesuit's should that Battlesuit have a 2+ save, are not only incapable of flying, but they also suffer movement penalties in the form of Sweeping Advances to show how difficult sudden movement is in that armour.

There's a reason Broadsides don't have JSJ as well.

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PostPosted: Sun Apr 01, 2012 10:29 am 
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Furthermore, Battlesuits have 2 wounds.
Currently, a Battlesuit is twice as tough as a space marine, which is about right.
Twice as tough as a Terminator? Not a chance.

I'm sorry, I realize you feel you can justify all of these changes in some way and that many other Tau players, tired of having a crappy codex, wouldn't mind a little shot of OP, but as onlookers, this codex looks completely bonkers.


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PostPosted: Sun Apr 01, 2012 11:24 am 
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Zero wrote:
Oh, I thought you were going to try to write a well-balanced, playable army, not show us what Mat Ward would do with the codex if he got his hands on it.

Battlesuits shouldn't have a 2+ save. That's ridiculous. Terminators, whose armour would be as thick as a Battlesuit's should that Battlesuit have a 2+ save, are not only incapable of flying, but they also suffer movement penalties in the form of Sweeping Advances to show how difficult sudden movement is in that armour.

There's a reason Broadsides don't have JSJ as well.
The Crisis suits are going back down to 3+ in the next revision, mainly because JSJ gives them excellent survivability at any rate, I did some scenario thinking on the matter yesterday, after Chief and I hashed it out on the subject of alphastriking and the like. The price of the suits will remain upped from the original to reflect their abilities in general.

Chief wrote:
Furthermore, Battlesuits have 2 wounds.
Currently, a Battlesuit is twice as tough as a space marine, which is about right.
Twice as tough as a Terminator? Not a chance.

I'm sorry, I realize you feel you can justify all of these changes in some way and that many other Tau players, tired of having a crappy codex, wouldn't mind a little shot of OP, but as onlookers, this codex looks completely bonkers.
Paladins have two wounds, but yes, they are part of the Great Wardite Heresy.

I know the codex looks bonkers, it's a work in progress. Getting to talk with onlookers is precisely why I'm here, to debate the finer points of 40k balance :D

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PostPosted: Sun Apr 01, 2012 12:02 pm 
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Even with just that one little change, the codex would look a lot more reasonable.

I might also drop the Hammerhead by about 10-15 points, and tac the price back onto the Disruption Pods. This boosts Tau at lower point games, while making disruption pods optional, rather than a mandatory upgrade.

In my personal opinion, if an upgrade is under the "options" section, it really should be an option, not a requirement.

Perhaps make Disruption Pods a full unit upgrade to give the piranahs that little boost they need.


Last edited by Chief on Sun Apr 01, 2012 6:54 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Sun Apr 01, 2012 12:25 pm 
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Chief wrote:
Even with just that one little change, the codex would look a lot more reasonable.

I might also drop the Hammerhead by about 10-15 points, and tac the price back onto the Disruption Pods. This boosts Tau at lower point games, while making disruption pods optional, rather than a mandatory upgrade.

In my personal opinion, if an upgrades is under the "options" section, it really should be an option, not a requirement.

Perhaps make Disruption Pods a full unit upgrade to give the piranahs that little boost they need.
Well, let's face it, the best defence against shooting a unit can have is not being in line of sight, and Crisis suits (although chunky models), can still hide reasonably effectively, all the while being able to shoot despite not being seen in return thanks to JSJ. After a bit of experimentation with movement and casualty figures, it became fairly obvious that 2+ saves weren't viable at those points, not by a long shot. Have to thank you for getting me thinking about it, by the way.

Considering the drop I've already given Skyrays/Devilfish, your suggestion may very well be viable. I need to compare the survivability of the Hammerhead with D-Pods at present to various other races' vehicles, but it's a reasonable suggestion to say the least.

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PostPosted: Sun Apr 01, 2012 6:36 pm 
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A hammerhead on a table with 1/4 of it being terrain without its always breaking flying base is still ridiculously hard to hide and shoot with. Now, about the price drop, 5-15 pts after buying the disruption pods for it? Plz?
Also, the ion cannon, might be odd to ask this but it being an AA mount is possible yes?


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 02, 2012 1:55 am 
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potato32 wrote:
A hammerhead on a table with 1/4 of it being terrain without its always breaking flying base is still ridiculously hard to hide and shoot with. Now, about the price drop, 5-15 pts after buying the disruption pods for it? Plz?
Also, the ion cannon, might be odd to ask this but it being an AA mount is possible yes?


Well, it essentially means the Hammerhead will be costed the same as it was before with D-Pods, but it ups the price of D-Pods to a level that other factions would be more familiar with. Which is fair enough considering D-Pods were conceived at a time when coversaves weren't as effective as they are now. Like I said, it comes down to whether or not a Hammerhead WITHOUT D-Pods is too cheap after a 10-15 point decrease.

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PostPosted: Thu Apr 05, 2012 2:16 pm 
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First Edition (or the Third Draft) now up.
Link: http://www.mediafire.com/?31y3e6b31uutrth

Changes made since the last draft:
- Earth Caste unit edited for clarity and scaleability of use.
- Skyray template weapon use clarified
- Hammerhead price decreased by 10 points
- Disruption pod price increased to 15 points
- Crisis suit armour save reduced to 3+, price hike retained
- Ethereal rule "Signals Interception" allowing seize initiative/redeployment on a 4+ increased to 100 points.
- Enemy Closing Rule modified, Tau weapons of Strength 6 and below now count as Pinning within 12''

Rationale:
Hammerhead price drop is basically in line with the price drop of Devilfish/Skyray/Stingray vehicles, but without a corresponding increase for disruption pods, the price drop across the board is generally unfair. May have to look at the Piranha price for a small drop, but it has speed coversaves to compensate in the mean time.

Crisis suit armour save increase was found to be unnecessary after a bit of playtesting, as units you can't see are practically invulnerable, meaning the 2+ save had little practical relevence until melee unless the Crisis suit was out in the open, which isn't fluffy (or fair if it's that survivable AND mobile). Price hike remains in place to compensate for their increased utility with dual weapons and the BS increase across the board.

Ethereal Signals Interception rule price increased massively due to serious alpha-ing possibilities with the inclusion of the rule. A bit of playtesting/mathhammer revealed high first turn casualty output against hordes/fast armies that were incapable of hiding or didn't usually start in well concealed positions (Orks, Nids, Dark Eldar, Eldar), all of which justify a large points increase for the ability. Also has the positive effect of increasing the value of putting an Ethereal on the battlefield while keeping the cost of doing so high depending on the model's particular loadout.

Enemy Closing modified to simply be Pinning, mostly because the number of complaints about it with some merit were numerous indeed, even if the arguments could be countered, considering the other advantageous changes it would be unfair to continue the extra shots idea in any form. Furthermore, some small scale playtesting against typical tactics of certain armies like Dire Avenger/Fire Dragon mobile deployment, or Ork Trukkboyz revealed that it was severely harsh against those types of tactic. Considering mech as a means to get forward quickly, even if the transports are destroyed after only a turn of decent movement, shouldn't be discouraged, I felt it necessary to remove the bonus for that reason.

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PostPosted: Thu Apr 05, 2012 10:05 pm 
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I am sooooo dissapointed...

why is it every army i choose has to be "updated" abruptly after i start playing it?

Dark Eldar 4th edition, my favorite models, my favorite codex, my favorite army... gone.

Tau 5th edition needs an update eh? Not excited at all... i just put a 750 together...

NOT GOING TO GET THE "UPDATED" CODEX FOR TAU OR DARK ELDAR!!!

Stick to your guns.


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PostPosted: Thu Apr 05, 2012 11:24 pm 
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This is what is called a "fandex".
It is a player made codex that has no official standings whatsoever.

Tau players, in official games, or against stuck-up opponents, are still stuck with the same old crappy codex.


PS. just try out 5th edition Dark Eldar.
It's a great codex, and I'd argue even more tactically challenging than the previous edition's. Furthermore, you get much more choice in practical units and builds, and don't have to ask your opponent's permission before every game.


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