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PostPosted: Tue Aug 14, 2012 3:53 pm 
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After watching the Beasts of War video on Character load outs I have been seriously thinking about changing my Blood Angel Sergeants from the classical Powerfist & bolt pistol to Power sword and hand-flamer. The squad they are in would have 2 meltas so the anti-tank role is pretty good but if I sacrificed some auto cannons on my allied army I can put melta bombs on my sergeants to give them more punch.
So what do you think should I keep my Powerfists, change to sword and flamer with the possibility of taking a melta bomb or do you have a composition that would be better. Please leave your thoughts down below. Thanks

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PostPosted: Tue Aug 14, 2012 5:17 pm 
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Fairly reasonable video from them. Didn't mention the nob on the table and the model with power axe was a bad example. Also it looks at things very much in isolation, a lot of their current small rule videos seem to be.

Just it keep cheap in general. I think you can over think challenges.

With a jump pack I would go power sword and meltabombs.

Hand flamer isn't killy enough.
Stormshield is too many points for a 1 wound guy.
inf. pistol is a maybe.

However, I think now for sure hitting last is not going to be good so fists are out.
You need to plan before hand where ICs go as they can do with sacrificial lambs for challenges or threat of challenges. In fact a powerfist can come in really useful here, as to give a different unit to feed to a challenge.

Also the feel for whether to refuse a challenge or who to select for one is now something to learn with your army.
Also when. As refusing a nob with power klaw, for example, can be a good tactic and a bad tactic depending on the situation.

Back to the list:
In a razorback maybe meltabombs and if they are lucky inf. pistol, 5 guys will not do so much in cc, I am want to keep them alive to score.
Dev. squads, good old bolter+pistol.
The other sargs are more debatable and situational.


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PostPosted: Tue Aug 14, 2012 11:23 pm 
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Here's a mini-bat rep regarding my experiences with challenges:

It was 2 vs. 2 regular battle. My brother and I had 1395 point versus the two other armies at 1450 points combined. I had my Space Wolves, my brother had Codex Marines, and the opponents were Imperial Guard and Chaos Space Marines.

I had 5 plain Grey Hunters, a Wolf Guard Sergeant with Frost axe (S6, I1, AP2), and a Wolf Guard Battle Leader with Wolf Claw (S4, I5, AP3). The squad shot at a flying Nurgle Daemon Prince with Wings. With one hit, they brought it down, and it took a wound. It then assaulted us, and issued a challenge.

I refused the challenge, and the Chaos player chose my Battle Leader to stay out of the combat. This left my Frost Axe to retaliate, causing a Wound. We ended up tied in combat.

Next turn, a Vanilla Tactical Squad assaulted into the foray. The only special weapon they had was a Powerfist. It did a wound to the Daemon, and the Daemon got three against my Wolves.

Next Assault, the Daemon Prince issued a challenge to the Space Wolves, and I refused again. This time he selected the Frost axe to not attack. He whiffed, and one of my Grey Hunters got in the last wound.


What I learned from this: Challenges are tactical. If you have a solo guy on the field, he can take out the biggest threat to him for a safer combat, either by keeping him from attacking or by killing them exclusively. If you are charging a single model, you can get some re-rolls into the combat, thus improving the chances you have of winning.

Initiative is now key. Powerfists are nice, yes, but if your Tactical Squad gets challenged by a high-strength, AP3 or better weapon that is above I1, then you would want to keep your fist alive, right? So you decline the challenge, and cannot attack, leaving the rest of your guys to finish the fight and wasting those Power fist points.

I would still take an upgrade of some kind on the Characters (sergeants) and your Independent Characters, and take a squad as an assaulty delivery platform for the HQ to kill stuff. (This logic also works on any unit with more than one character.)

If you don't plan on taking a squad with the HQ or Independent Character, I would give either a Power Sword or Maul to the Sergeant, or anything cheap or that strikes at Initiative.

I would recommend giving a Power fist to the Sergeant and a Power maul or Lightning Claw to the HQ. This gets you plenty of good attacks at various Initiative levels.

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PostPosted: Wed Aug 15, 2012 10:07 pm 
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Well I forgot to mention that two out of my three Assault squads will have a force sword wielding librarian with them and all three squads will have Sanguinary priests in them. Sould this affect the loadout of my Sergeants?

(p.s the only upgrades the Librarians and the Priests have are Jump packs)

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PostPosted: Wed Aug 15, 2012 10:25 pm 
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Dante999 wrote:
Well I forgot to mention that two out of my three Assault squads will have a force sword wielding librarian with them and all three squads will have Sanguinary priests in them. Sould this affect the loadout of my Sergeants?

(p.s the only upgrades the Librarians and the Priests have are Jump packs)
Do the Blood Angels Librarians come with Force Weapons? A Force Staff would be S6, so that's not too bad right there.

I'm not familiar with the upgrades that the Sanguinary Priests can get, but they are still extra characters that can help out the rest of the squad. If they could take like a simple Power Weapon, combine that with Power fists on the Sergeants, and you'd have three characters to take on or deny any challenge.

Multiple characters will be the way to go for assaults. That is my prediction.

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 16, 2012 12:14 am 
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I usually just let my Sergeants keep their boltguns, which they can fire one-handed, and a powerfist or power weapon.

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 16, 2012 12:48 am 
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sang priests come with chainsword and bolt pistol, can upgrade to power sword/fist or lightning claw, plus various pistols (hand flamer, plasma, etc). similar costs as other ba unit upgrades. cannot get two lightning claws.

characters have to be in the front line to contribute attacks and front line troops take all wounds, therefore priests should be in the back of a unit protected for as long as possible.

therefore any upgrade (other than jp) are points that could be better spent elsewhere.


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 16, 2012 5:19 am 
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Katharon wrote:
I usually just let my Sergeants keep their boltguns, which they can fire one-handed, and a powerfist or power weapon.
Assault marine sergeant can not take boltguns. Though if you are talking about tactical squads et cetera then when taking a power weapon I would suggest bringing a pistol as it gives you an extra attack.
How have you found your powerfist performing in this world with challenges?

sethocles wrote:
characters have to be in the front line to contribute attacks and front line troops take all wounds, therefore priests should be in the back of a unit protected for as long as possible.
Firstly you must mean independent characters. Secondly this seems to be a 5th edition rule. Quote me the rulebook if I am wrong. IC's are part of unit for all purposes(pg 39)

Then you choose which front line troops get hit, as such the priest isn't risking it all being in base to base contact, though it is clearly safer for him to be at the back just giving FNP.

Which is important you'll want your priest to refuse challenges or get a sergeant to take them for you.
So I would not over load them. Maybe melta bombs.
Also a priest per assault squad is probably too many. They have bubbles of FNP goodness so you get away with less then 1 per squad, then due to the risk of dying I would prefer to have at least some priests with any other unit. I mean biker squads or terminators that are rushing forward in a raider, but also FNP dev. squads and scout squads are pretty good.


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 16, 2012 6:58 am 
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MFletch wrote:
Assault marine sergeant can not take boltguns. Though if you are talking about tactical squads et cetera then when taking a power weapon I would suggest bringing a pistol as it gives you an extra attack.
How have you found your powerfist performing in this world with challenges?.



Sucky, to an extent. Against other enemy sergeant-types, he bears up well. Against special characters, he dies every time. *shrug*

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 16, 2012 8:02 am 
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BunkhouseBuster wrote:
Do the Blood Angels Librarians come with Force Weapons? A Force Staff would be S6, so that's not too bad right there.


The Librarians both have normal force swords, AP3 no strengh benefits, and a bolt pistol so they have 4 attacks on the charge.

MFletch wrote:
Which is important you'll want your priest to refuse challenges or get a sergeant to take them for you.
So I would not over load them. Maybe melta bombs.


I was actually thinking of doing that

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PostPosted: Sat Aug 18, 2012 8:48 am 
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sethocles wrote:
characters have to be in the front line to contribute attacks and front line troops take all wounds, therefore priests should be in the back of a unit protected for as long as possible.
Firstly you must mean independent characters. Secondly this seems to be a 5th edition rule. Quote me the rulebook if I am wrong. IC's are part of unit for all purposes(pg 39)

Then you choose which front line troops get hit, as such the priest isn't risking it all being in base to base contact, though it is clearly safer for him to be at the back just giving FNP.

Which is important you'll want your priest to refuse challenges or get a sergeant to take them for you.
So I would not over load them. Maybe melta bombs.
[/quote]

your right and wrong. no longer need b2b. (at least i havent been able to find anything requiring that. the characters section however applies to all characters, not just ic's, and so the movement requirements of having to move characters as soon as possible applies, thus if they are near the front they will be b2b and having a priest be one of 3 or 4 models b2b is uncomfortable for me. 2-3 wounds and he is forced to take the wound.


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PostPosted: Sat Aug 18, 2012 3:15 pm 
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I didn't deny that priests were likely to get into base to base.
Then it will be 3 unsaved wounds(probably more models than this are in base to base), before you are putting wounds onto the priest where he can LOS. So actually front line is not so scary but is likely to happen.

Priest being at the back happens if you keep him at the back pre assault and roll high enough to get into assault but not enough for the priest to make it in. The priest can easily be 2'' further back than furthest forward model preassault so it can easily happen.

Else of course if you get challenged and you say no thank you and the priest will be at the back, nice and safe.


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PostPosted: Sun Aug 26, 2012 5:55 am 
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I still say Power Fist and Storm Shield for BA assault sergeants...

Which means you can accept challenges from enemy uber-characters and take their attacks away from your squad; and possibly survive due to Shield, and maybe kill their character...all the while the squad members get to fully attack the enemy squad!

Try it and let me know your experience...


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