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PostPosted: Fri Jul 27, 2012 5:05 pm 
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The old Screamer 1W 3I 1A 4+ Invulnerable Save and count as having Melta Bombs and they were pretty cheap. The new ones get 2W4I 3A only a 5+ Invulnerable save but in hand to hand their Melee weapon is S5 AP2 Armorbane. They also get a Sweeping Flyby in Turbo mode for D3 S4 AP- hits per model. All this for a slight 9 point boost in cost and you can only have up to 9 in a unit (they still count as Jetbikes). This means instead of only being OK at taking out vehicles, they are great in any hand to hand and incredible at taking out vehicles. 3A each on a 3+ for S5 +2D6 with a +1 on the damage chart!

The Flamer got a boost too. They got some tweaks too. They got 2W 4I and like the Screamers lost one off their save, but the cost was reduced by 9 points. Overall I think this makes them a lot tougher and the lowered cost makes them much more worth taking. Like the Screamers you can only have 9 in a unit with a base of 3.

I'm not sure about the chariots, but I'm sold on the Screamers and Flamers.

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PostPosted: Fri Jul 27, 2012 10:43 pm 
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I really like how the improved the Screamers/Flamers but it doesn't seem right how they have a 5++ now, all Tzeentch Daemons are mean't to have a 4++.


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PostPosted: Sat Jul 28, 2012 1:08 pm 
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I'll have to look at it closer to see if they put it somewhere else. They did not list the save, so maybe it is still the 4+... which would be mighty.

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 30, 2012 6:54 am 
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Hi!

As of now, they don't seem to have any save at all. CD units follow their own Daemon rule and it doesn't say anything about getting free 5+ save. Also if the rulebook version of the Daemon rule would be used, they wouldn't have Daemonic Assault rule, wich would be super wonky.

When i get home i gotta read CD FAQ again as i don't remember what it said about the Daemon rule in there. Too bad i can't get to my Codex, rulebook or the minidex in the next few weeks. :/

PS: I think someone messed pretty badly somewhere. And i agree that Daemons not getting bonuses that stuff with Daemon special rule get is just silly.


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 30, 2012 10:12 am 
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daemons saves are invulnerable. so a blood letter has 5+ save but as it states in the actual codex that save is also invulnerable so it would be a 5++ save.

unless the war gear state any difference for example
skull taker has a 5+ save but because he has iron hide he now has a 3+ normal save and a 5+ invulnerable save so all daemons come with a save of some form even if it is pretty pants.

if you can't tell I hate my daemons being shot :/


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 31, 2012 12:11 am 
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Hi!

michael01120 wrote:
daemons saves are invulnerable. so a blood letter has 5+ save but as it states in the actual codex that save is also invulnerable so it would be a 5++ save.

unless the war gear state any difference for example
skull taker has a 5+ save but because he has iron hide he now has a 3+ normal save and a 5+ invulnerable save so all daemons come with a save of some form even if it is pretty pants.

if you can't tell I hate my daemons being shot :/


Daemons get inv saves instead of normal ones due their Daemon rule. The rule states that the saves mentioned in the profile are inv saves instead of normal ones and that if they have a normal save it will be listed seperatedly (Iron hide). Screamers and Flamers don't have any save in their profile. I can't see a rule that would say that CD Daemongs get a save if they don't have it mentioned in the profile.

I read the FAQ also and it doesn't imply anything else that we should use our own Daemon special rule as they added the fear to it seperatedly, but not the 5++ save.


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 31, 2012 1:52 am 
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The Daemon Special rule gives them a 5++


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 31, 2012 2:35 am 
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Hi!

Bujiga wrote:
The Daemon Special rule gives them a 5++


Page 27 of CD Codex reads:
"Daemon
This special rule applies to every model in this army and includes the following four special rules:"

After that it lists rules that we use for Daemon skill. None of them says anything about 5++ save.

Are you saying that we should use 2 different skills with the same name? Why then they have added the Fear for the one in the Codex with FAQ?

In the end this also means that should the chariots get a 5++ save also? And if so should we then start to apply this rule to SG also? SG has a spesific definition for Daemon, but does he get the other Daemon rule also?

PS: IMHO they should get the save. I'm just trying to figure out the RAW of this issue.


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 31, 2012 4:01 am 
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Typoko wrote:
Hi!

Bujiga wrote:
The Daemon Special rule gives them a 5++


Page 27 of CD Codex reads:
"Daemon
This special rule applies to every model in this army and includes the following four special rules:"

After that it lists rules that we use for Daemon skill. None of them says anything about 5++ save.

Are you saying that we should use 2 different skills with the same name? Why then they have added the Fear for the one in the Codex with FAQ?

In the end this also means that should the chariots get a 5++ save also? And if so should we then start to apply this rule to SG also? SG has a spesific definition for Daemon, but does he get the other Daemon rule also?

PS: IMHO they should get the save. I'm just trying to figure out the RAW of this issue.

It'll probably be addressed with the update. Arguing about it here won't help any. For now, use the codex rules. When we get the update, use the updated rules.

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PostPosted: Tue Jul 31, 2012 4:52 am 
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the codex rules are always used rather than the rule book rules as it states in the actual rule book near the front. so because are codex has the daemon rule already written in it, it means we do get a 5++ save automatic


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 31, 2012 8:08 pm 
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You guys had me worried they lost their save all together, but no I checked... The new 6th edition rule book p35 includes rules for Daemons and it says 5+ Invulnerable Save and causes Fear. The CD codex adds the special deployment (Daemonic Assault), Fearless, and Eternal Warrior (and Daemonic Rivalry for Independent Characters)... So unless another save is listed all Daemons have at least a 5+ Invulnerable save.

Now if you really want to twist it you could say that the codex meaning for Daemon and the rule book conflict and they specifically added the Fear rules in the errata, but not the Invulnerable Save, that they have to stick with the rules for what is listed. You can use both as long as they do not conflict and since this booklet was released after the errata was you can understand the possibility of errors creeping in. You know they are not getting rid of the Daemon save so just leave it alone.

Now if they do add errata they might actually put it back to a 4+ save, but I think for the cost and added wounds I would not see the justifications... I almost think they made those Screamers a bit overkill. 5+ is fine for me.

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