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PostPosted: Tue Jan 10, 2012 11:40 pm 
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darkned1ight wrote:
suddenly today i wished we could take armies full of chosen...........feeling same way about DA vets. its weird. anyway i doubt the old codex was more broken than GK's


Oh done right it definitely was. There's no doubt Chaos Marines needed a new codex. Iron Warriors and to a slightly lesser extent Alpha Legion and Word Bearers were every bit as bad or worse than current Grey Knights.

Iron Warriors were able to take 9 Obliterators (who were cheaper and tougher) AND still take 4 Heavy Support choices. Also 6 man units with Lascannons and Plasma Guns with Tank Hunters.


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 10, 2012 11:45 pm 
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holy crap i want this, come on its a cheap affordable christmas gift 8)
wondering how an all melta/flamer wielding chosen list in rhinos would do.

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 10, 2012 11:56 pm 
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How about this for a 2000 point Chaos list

200ish points to trick out an HQ

2 Obliterators
2 Obliterators
2 Obliterators

10 Chaos Marines with Power Fist Champion, Frag Grenades, Bolt Pistols and Close Combat Weapons, 2 Melta Guns and Furious Charge in a Rhino
10 Chaos Marines with Power Fist Champion, Frag Grenades, Bolt Pistols and Close Combat Weapons, 2 Melta Guns and Furious Charge in a Rhino
5 Chaos Marines with a Lascannon and Plasma Gun with Tank Hunters
5 Chaos Marines with a Lascannon and Plasma Gun with Tank Hunters

8 Havocs with 4 Autocannons and Tank Hunters
Predator with Autocannon and Lascannons
Predator with Autocannon and Lascannons
Predator with Autocannon and Lascannons

That was completely doable with Iron Warriors last codex.


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 10, 2012 11:57 pm 
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i wanna try that list, it looks fun. :twisted:

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 11, 2012 1:30 am 
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Looks about as "fun" as any IG gunline to me...

Tbh, I like the new Obliterators better - the current edition has gotten me so used to Plasmacannons it's hard to go back.


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 12, 2012 2:50 pm 
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You're making me weep nostalgic tears. Always had to throw in a basilisk just for the fun of it too (instead).


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PostPosted: Mon Feb 13, 2012 8:53 pm 
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You replaced Plague Marines ... with Thousand Sons.

Anyone else smell a troll?


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PostPosted: Mon Feb 13, 2012 11:40 pm 
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Chief wrote:
You replaced Plague Marines ... with Thousand Sons.

Anyone else smell a troll?

you sure its jsut not the poor plague marines he abandoned? :wink:

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Night Lords :3000[----------] 23 - 22 - 18
Hawk Lords: 17000 [----------]63 - 9 - 29
Tau: 3750 [----------] 45 - 15 - 71
Red Corsair: 750 [----------] 03 - 0 - 02
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Black Templar Successors (yet to be named) : ordered ----------


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 14, 2012 1:47 am 
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Chief wrote:
You replaced Plague Marines ... with Thousand Sons.

Anyone else smell a troll?

Indeed.

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PostPosted: Mon Feb 20, 2012 1:51 pm 
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I think this whole Codex of CSM are mainly geared towards Plague everything and a splash of Khorne for the most part. I hope they upgrade Defilers a little more in the future also. Would be nice.

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PostPosted: Mon May 14, 2012 2:27 pm 
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Now we're getting somewhere...

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Most of the criticisms against thousand sons are valid, but short-sighted. Accusing the AP3 bolters of being useless on account of cover saves is nothing more than being ignorant of the fact that cover saves can also be taken against plasma and melta guns. It's true that thousand sons can't take special weapons, but the only drawback is their ability to deal with armor. By the criticisms posted, it seems that the typical response to dealing with enemy thousand sons is to sit in cover and take pot-shots, charge them down in melee or ignore them altogether. You have to give up cover to charge them and you are going on the assumption that your opponent won't be using your charge to draw you out or won't be assaulting the melee units (while unwise, it does deny any bonuses for charging and lock the unit in question into a protracted fight). Shooting them isn't going to be an overly effective method of wiping them off the field because of their "portable cover save". Ignore them, and then they'll just end up being useful by seizing an objective, blocking line of sight and giving important targets cover saves or killing something that you actually needed to survive. If you do any one of these three things, their job is done (if they are being used correctly).

By and large, the way to get around this is to take something in the veteran or heavy support field anyway. Khorne berzerkers can take powerfists, sure, but they can't take any other special weapons of note which makes them exculsively close combat units. Carve them down at distance and deny them their charge, and khorne berzerkers lose their edge. Throw sacrificial units at them as well, and because you can no longer consolidate into melee, khorne berzerkers don't have so much going for them anymore. Sure, they'll carve through the unit, but you had best hope that the unit gets killed on your opponents turn or it's another round of shooting at the 'zerkers.

Plague marines as being tougher? What's the point? The weaker weapons already have a hard enough time doing any sort of damage to marines, and the extra toughness doesn't really make a huge difference against the heavier weapons. The utility of a single plague marine could be easily matched by two line marines, so you might as well take the cheaper units because you'll simply have more of them.... and then S8 or better weapons insta-kill the marine anyway. The only thing you're effectively protecting yourself against are plasma guns.

You can run around arguing about which legion is uesless and for what reason and keep running yourself into circles, but it boils down to preference and play style.

The one advantage of the thousand sons is that they are one of the few units capable of moving and shooting to their maximum range. Sure, it's not a fantastic advantage but it gives them something over most other units. The utility of the thousand sons is derived from how you use them, not in how they compare against the rest of the codex. I've been berated for using IG grenade launchers and received extensive disserations on how useless those weapons are, especially if I know I'm going up against an SM opponent. After games I have to deal with the complaints about how over-powered grenade launchers are, or how I cheated...

Besides, every codex has its useless units. The game is built to be fun, and any attempt to bring balance to wh40k is sensless because it is a completely imbalanced game. If you really want to go on a rant about the useless elements in 40k, then I ask the question of why even dissect codex CSM because it's no secret that codex CSM is now defunct and the worst off codex (though, granted, this thread was started a year ago before some of the other updates, though it was clear even then that the new codices would be better than CSM). I like to play this game for fun, so I'm not at all concerned that my thousand sons are under par.


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PostPosted: Tue May 15, 2012 3:28 am 
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poda_tamas wrote:
Accusing the AP3 bolters of being useless on account of cover saves is nothing more than being ignorant of the fact that cover saves can also be taken against plasma and melta guns.

Plasma Guns wound on 2's and because of their higher strength are capable of damaging light vehicles. AP2 is also significantly better than AP3 because, while it may not ignore cover, it does ignore FnP, which is extremely abundant these days. Meltaguns are for wrecking vehicles. The AP1 is to damage vehicles more.

poda_tamas wrote:
By the criticisms posted, it seems that the typical response to dealing with enemy thousand sons is to sit in cover and take pot-shots, charge them down in melee or ignore them altogether.

For combat, the Thousand Sons are dead. Sure, the opponent has to get out of cover to charge them, but at this point cover doesn't matter, because you're in combat. As for drawing them out into the open, well, that's a pretty terrible use for a 200-odd minimum point squad. So many armies are capable of fielding some cheap hard hitting units, and in them destroying your 1k Sons, they'd have made that units points back. Also, the same could be said for when you then charge that unit with whatever it was you were planning on using that you were saying for the 1k Sons: That unit has just been drawn out and is now in the open, easily chargeable.

Sitting in cover and taking pot-shots at them probably won't work. I haven't read through the thread in a while, so I don't know who mentioned it, but it's not a great idea. Same goes for ignoring them.

But, you could gun them down. Not taking pot-shots, but legitimately applying force via rapid-fire or blast, possibly from multiple units, just as you would for any Marine unit.

poda_tamas wrote:
Throw sacrificial units at them as well, and because you can no longer consolidate into melee, khorne berzerkers don't have so much going for them anymore.

I don't know what game you're playing, but that's an awful idea. If you throw a sacrificial unit at them, they're going to destroy that unit in your turn and, while they may not be able to consolidate into combat, they're still getting a free D6" movement in your turn, which means that they are now even close to their target and you just wasted a unit of your own.

poda_tamas wrote:
Plague marines as being tougher? What's the point? The weaker weapons already have a hard enough time doing any sort of damage to marines, and the extra toughness doesn't really make a huge difference against the heavier weapons. The utility of a single plague marine could be easily matched by two line marines, so you might as well take the cheaper units because you'll simply have more of them.... and then S8 or better weapons insta-kill the marine anyway. The only thing you're effectively protecting yourself against are plasma guns.

What? Are you serious? Marines may be tough, but they're not invincible. The standard weapon wounds them on 4's and they've got their 3+ to make. With my Kabalite Warriors rapid-firing a unit of Marines, I more often than not kill nearly half the unit in one shooting phase. Plague Marines, on the other hand, are being wounded on 5+, which makes a HUGE difference. Furthermore, they have FnP, so even when they are wounded, they have twice the chance of actually surviving. When you say that you're protecting yourself against Plasma Guns I'm assuming you mean the Plague Marines own Plasma Gun, and not that of the enemy.

It's a well known fact that Plague Marines are the most competitive troops choice we have, and if you can't see the clear advantages they have over other Marines, I seriously question your ability to analyse any unit properly. I kind of stopped taking you so seriously after this to be honest.

poda_tamas wrote:
Sure, it's not a fantastic advantage but it gives them something over most other units.

For the most expensive troops unit in our book, I expect a fantastic advantage.

poda_tamas wrote:
and any attempt to bring balance to wh40k is sensless because it is a completely imbalanced game.

With the current rulebook, that's true, but with an update to the rules, bringing balance is an extremely real possibility. It wouldn't be complete, 100% balance, but it would be balanced enough that any imbalance is negligible.

poda_tamas wrote:
it's no secret that codex CSM is now defunct and the worst off codex

Tau and Tyranids are worse off than we are. The typical 2 Lash Sorcerers, Plagues in Rhino's, Oblit spam list is still quite powerful.

If you want to play with them for fun, go for it, but the fact is that they suck. They're a terrible unit, a poor choice and wouldn't even be looked at twice for a competitive list. This thread was made to prevent people from asking why 1k Sons are so bad and so people trying to make competitive lists would stop using them. We were repeating ourselves and it was growing old.

1k Sons are so bad, they're barely above Spawn.

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PostPosted: Wed Jun 13, 2012 8:39 am 
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Thousand sons are a fantastic unit. (I know my name is Magnus don't mention the irony) they are great if you put them either holding an objective or in a rhino with Ahriman and kill elite marine units with a 3+ save or lower. Sure they are expensive and other things could be better than them but when you are comparing things such as close combat it is like talking about berserker's shooting capability while holding a objective.

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PostPosted: Thu Jun 14, 2012 3:30 am 
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But the difference between 1k Sons and Berzerkers is 1k Sons are extremely expensive and do an OK job, provided they're presented with the right targets, but Berzerkers are easily the 2nd best combat unit point-for-point in the game, knocked down only by Harlequins, and are cheaper than 1k Sons.

Ahriman is also too expensive for what he does.

See, the problem isn't entirely how well a unit performs, but how well it performs compared to its point cost. 1k Sons do not warrant such an excessively high point cost. If they were something like 18 points a model and you didn't have to take the Aspiring Sorcerer, they'd be much better. They could've just made it so they have to be within 12" of a Sorcerer, with the option to take a Sorcerer.

But even then, I'd probably leave them for friendly games and themed lists because they're still very inflexible.

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PostPosted: Thu Jun 14, 2012 4:23 am 
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When I posted my comment about the bezerkers it was a example of a unit doing what it is not trained to do. I said that the bezerkers are not meant to sit and hold objectives with their bolt pistols they are meant to go out and rip everything limb by limb in cc. With the comment prior to my previous comment it stated that rubic marines are not good at assault. This is definitely true however it is not what they are meant to do. Thouand sons are meant to sit and hold objectives or go in a rhino with Ahriman and shoot at elite units (not any with 2+ save). You also raised a great point about Ahriman being too expensive for his points cost. This is definitely true however their are many other models with the same problem. For example the Sanguinor with 200+ points (sorry but I don't know the exact points cost due to me not having the BA codex) he would not in an entire game make up for his points cost but will kill a lot and for this reason every BA player I know fields him all the time for competitive matches. This is one example of many many mistakes for points value. However with everyone knowing about the new CSM codex coming out in presumanly August they will probably either give Ahriman more stuff to make up for his points cost or lower the points he is worth.

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