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 Post subject: Genestealer Help
PostPosted: Fri Mar 30, 2012 12:27 am 
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Hey guys I am very new to playing Nids and I have my first game this weekend against my friends space marines.

I plan on bringing a unit of genestealers with scything talons and I know you don't get bonus attacks of bringing more then one close combat weapon, but my question is, if I bring scything talons do they replace the rending claws?(codex doesn't say that) and if not, do I just say before each assault "I am going to use scything talons for this"?

also any help on beating space marines would be much appreciated

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 Post subject: Re: Genestealer Help
PostPosted: Fri Mar 30, 2012 12:30 am 
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Both of them apply. That means you get re-rolls on to hit of one, and you get rending.

If you really want your Genestealers to be nasty to MEQ, give them Toxin Sacs instead of the Scything Talons. They'll then wound on a 4+ (like normal), but since your strength is equal to (or higher than) the toughness of your target, you can reroll failed to wound rolls.

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 Post subject: Re: Genestealer Help
PostPosted: Fri Mar 30, 2012 1:13 am 
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Thanks Smurfyk, just to make it clear, I use both of them in one assault, one attack gets rending, one attack gets to re-roll.

I am going to be using toxin sacs and adrenal glands on everything I can in the army.

here is my list for the game, I am pretty much just using everything I own
1 x hive tyrant
1 x swarmlord
1 x carnifex
1 x trygon
40 x termagaunts
24 x hormagaunts
8 x genestealers
3 x warriors

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 Post subject: Re: Genestealer Help
PostPosted: Fri Mar 30, 2012 4:02 am 
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using scything talons allows you to reroll all those ones you get on your dice when rolling for hits, toxin sacs will allow you to reroll all the ones you get when rolling for wounds, and every 6 you get when rolling for wounds will be rending. Adrenal glands will increase your initiative and your STR thus making it more likely that the toxin sacs rule will take effect.

edited first sentence to make it clearer.

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Last edited by sebastionsynn on Fri Mar 30, 2012 4:59 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Genestealer Help
PostPosted: Fri Mar 30, 2012 4:44 am 
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You will reroll all rolls of a "1" on the to hit and roll all the misses for wounds.

Genestealers with ST, TS and AG getting the charge will 99% of the time go 1st and kill anything they charge (if they get there without losing troops) but that is very point heavy a unit of 10 with ST, TS and AG = 220pts (22 per model!)
If just 1 dies it hurts alot.

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 Post subject: Re: Genestealer Help
PostPosted: Fri Mar 30, 2012 10:46 am 
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I wouldn't suggest Adrenal Glands on Genestealers though. They'll never need the initiative, it won't increase your chances to wound or rend with Toxin Sacs, and without Toxin Sacs it will dilute your Rending attacks among more regular wounds, so your opponent can allocate more in their favor to reduce casualties. I also don't even bother with Scything Talons, because you'll tend to roll more 2's if anything when you do. That's more from experience though.

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 Post subject: Re: Genestealer Help
PostPosted: Fri Mar 30, 2012 1:55 pm 
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I wouldn't suggest Adrenal Glands on Genestealers though.

stealers are only inititiave 6, which means that when dealing with marines HQ choices and even some veteran sergeants are going to go at the same time as the stealers.for instance a Grey Knight assassin goes of at init 7, and Castellan Crowe at init 6, there's also a nasty ability the librarian has that with a successful psychic test gives the whole unit he is with init 10.
so obviously stay away from the librarians unit, shoot the crap out of it instead.

back to the assassin, the Callidus has a power weapon as part of their wargear, the eversor gains d3 attacks on the charge and is equipped w/ the equivalent of lightning claws and has furious charge, the others are shooty types. so a Callidus has 4 att's, +1 for the charge, and +1 for extra weapon, equaling 6 att's against a unit of stealers with no adrenal, that's a maximum of 6 dead stealers. on the other hand stealers with adrenal will go off at the same time as long as they were the ones to charge leaving only 5 att's to the assassin, but that's still half of a 10 man squad of stealers dead. the eversor on the charge will gain 4 att's, +d3 for charge on average gaining 1 or 2, and +1 for extra weapon, so this guy can have from 6 - 8 att's all power weapons, with the ability to reroll, further increasing the chance for the maximum of dead stealers. stealers on the charge will not gain an extra attack for the charge against this guy as he negates it, but your still looking at an average of 5 dead stealers against this guy. obviously the best way to deal with assassins is to shoot them from far away, very far away.

Castellan Crowe has a various number of attacks, best way to deal with him is make sure he is not in base to base contact with your stealers, keep him behind the assaulted unit as much as possible. he has rending on a 4+ so even though he doesn't have a power weapon, he might as well have anyways. unenhanced stealers will go off at the same time he does, but with his WS 8, it'll be hard to hit him, scything talons will be nice to have here as it's just that much more likely to get hits with the rerolls, better yet, don't send in stealers w/out adrenal, this way they will go first and have a even better chance of removing this guy before he gets his attacks off since he only has 2 wounds. being that he's an IC he can be picker out in HtH combat.

and that's just against grey knights, god only knows what Dark Angels, Blood Angels, Black Templar, and Vanilla marines are like let alone any other armies. so to sum, sure you can run stealers without scything talons, and adrenal glands, but you have to use them VERY, VERY carefully or you will lose the entire unit and not gain back their point cost. take the scything talons and adrenal glands and they will be much more forgiving of mistakes, and you could still gain back their value even if you did make a mistake.

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 Post subject: Re: Genestealer Help
PostPosted: Fri Mar 30, 2012 3:31 pm 
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So you're telling me that more upgrades on Genestealers is a good way to go against Grey Knights? I think we've got some bigger issues there.

As for every other Space Marine army, Genestealers will either be going first or last. If your opponent is decent, you're going to go last with or without Adrenal Glands anyway, because you're going to have to charge into terrain.

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 Post subject: Re: Genestealer Help
PostPosted: Fri Mar 30, 2012 3:44 pm 
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So you're telling me that more upgrades on Genestealers is a good way to go against Grey Knights? I think we've got some bigger issues there.

not really, my point was that against HQ choices in certain armies, if you don't have the upgrades you are going to lose the entire squad and thus the pts they cost. if you take the upgrades you may STILL lose the squad, but you might have the chance to make their pts cost back or even exceed their pts cost.

against regular units that don't have those high att's and high init, the stealers are likely to go first and wipe the entire squad. It all depends on how a person uses them, and what actions they take. I, for instance, always take the upgrades, outflank, and have always succeeded in gaining or exceeding the cost of my genestealers in enemy kills. in the last game i played, i took upgrades but didn't take the Broodlord, flanked, and wiped an entire squad of necron destroyers including the destroyer lord, but then floundered against a squad of warriors with a necron lord w/warscythe. it took the stealers i had left and two shrike warriors to make the necron warriors break, and then i was able to overrun them. at end of the game it was a draw and i had 1 genestealer left as a fearless unit being in synapse range.

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 Post subject: Re: Genestealer Help
PostPosted: Fri Mar 30, 2012 3:54 pm 
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I see your point there, but then it all depends on what purpose you give the unit. Typically I'll outflank 8-10 of them with Toxin Sacs as a cheap, multi-purpose unit. They're great for taking out objective holders as well as holding objectives themselves, uprooting heavy support teams, and even killing tanks that don't expect it if you're in a tight spot. I've taken out Leman Russes this way on several occasions without too much trouble, and that far exceeds their points cost.

I suppose we all have our ways of running them, but I tend to keep mine as cheap as possible while maintaining effectiveness.

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 Post subject: Re: Genestealer Help
PostPosted: Fri Mar 30, 2012 6:08 pm 
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I suppose we all have our ways of running them,


on this, we are in perfect agreement. :)

my main problem is that i don't have much in the way of units yet, 28 terms, 16 horms, 18 stealers, 2 broodlords, 2 lictors, 3 raveners, 24 gargoyles(half are still on sprue), 3 zoans, 1 walking tryant, 1 mawloc, and shortly the tervifex will be built. so for me to meet pts cost of some of my fellow gamers, i tend to upgrade everything. eventually when i have more options it may be perfectly feasible for me to run stealers like you do. sadly in order to run the tervi the way he needs to be run, it means i need to get at least another 20-24 terms, and money is limited, so i have to choose which way to expand one step at a time. since i really need those hive guard, i'll probly be using the tervifex as a fex.

one question that pertains to the thread though is how useful to you think Ymgarl are, how would you use them, if you do. and based on the above list of units that i have should i concentrate elsewhere or start on the Ymgarl, after the hive guard?

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 Post subject: Re: Genestealer Help
PostPosted: Fri Mar 30, 2012 6:45 pm 
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Thanx for all the insight fellas. for this game my friend and I are just trying to bring as much as we can, so to keep up i just have to upgrade everything i own. but for my next game you have given me alot to think about when i am making my list

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 Post subject: Re: Genestealer Help
PostPosted: Fri Mar 30, 2012 8:59 pm 
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sebastionsynn wrote:

one question that pertains to the thread though is how useful to you think Ymgarl are, how would you use them, if you do. and based on the above list of units that i have should i concentrate elsewhere or start on the Ymgarl, after the hive guard?


Ymgarls kind of suck. I've used them and they've worked well, but I realize that I was pretty lucky in those instances. They don't have grenades and they're almost guaranteed to assault into difficult terrain, so they'll likely be going last and will be whittled down quickly. They also take up a very precious Elite slot, so I tend to forget they even exist.

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 Post subject: Re: Genestealer Help
PostPosted: Sat Mar 31, 2012 8:28 am 
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Smurfyk wrote:
sebastionsynn wrote:

one question that pertains to the thread though is how useful to you think Ymgarl are, how would you use them, if you do. and based on the above list of units that i have should i concentrate elsewhere or start on the Ymgarl, after the hive guard?


Ymgarls kind of suck. I've used them and they've worked well, but I realize that I was pretty lucky in those instances. They don't have grenades and they're almost guaranteed to assault into difficult terrain, so they'll likely be going last and will be whittled down quickly. They also take up a very precious Elite slot, so I tend to forget they even exist.


The only good thing about them is Dormant, thats the only reason to take them, a DS unit that can assualt the turn it DS and in terrain is awesome!

But.. :'( sadly it doesnt work that well, you dont chose when they can come in from reserves, you could miss your chance.

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 Post subject: Re: Genestealer Help
PostPosted: Sun Apr 01, 2012 5:37 pm 
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jmaddux wrote:
But.. :'( sadly it doesnt work that well, you dont chose when they can come in from reserves, you could miss your chance.


Not to mention the fact that your opponent can easily deny area terrain to you, making it predictable or useless where they'll come out.

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