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 Post subject: necessary allies
PostPosted: Wed Jul 04, 2012 8:07 pm 
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Just to start i'm pretty much brand new to the game I only have a few models and fewer of those are actually painted. Sixth edition brings an ally system, which all of you know, but I really don't like it. I mean in a game that revolves such much around chance and luck, to me strategy comes into play when your opponent has the exact model that counters you this forces you to think strategically on how to counter it.
This may seem like what the ally system will accomplish but where is the strategy and the fun in just picking the perfect model that combats your weakness and including it in every list. So with all of yous guys wisdom do you think that using allies will be necessary throughout 40k's future? Thanks in advanced


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 Post subject: Re: necessary allies
PostPosted: Wed Jul 04, 2012 8:34 pm 
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definitely not, they way they have it with different levels of alliance it think its balanced, sure there may be "cheese hunters" but their always are, and always will be....

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 Post subject: Re: necessary allies
PostPosted: Wed Jul 04, 2012 8:49 pm 
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BewareOfTom wrote:
sure there may be "cheese hunters" but their always are, and always will be....

This is too true.

I'm a casual gamer usually only playing with my friends, none of us are going to look for overpowered combinations, but we are looking for fluffy combinations, my Imperial Guard are now becoming an attachment to a Black Templars force. My other buddy is joining Chaos and Orks, and my other friend is playing straight Dark Eldar (he hasn't told me otherwise). Another thing is that allies can only be used in 2000 points or more, so I can't see many tournaments being held above these point levels, but mostly for casual gaming. What I would say is just build up your army and once you get bored of painting it start getting some allied attachments. My friends and I are making a couple of house rules ourselves, like allies can be used at any point level as long as the standard force organization chart, you could do the same thing if you have some friends to start the hobby with. Warhammer 40k is a game so treat it like one and try to have fun with it. Best of luck.

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 Post subject: Re: necessary allies
PostPosted: Wed Jul 04, 2012 9:29 pm 
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Cheese is something that we all are on the watch for, whether to use or defeat. That said, I like allies.

My brother and I see this as justification for our own fluff. We probably have over a dozen characters, several Space Marine Chapters, Guard Companies, a Tomb World, a Craft World, etc. We already know what we are going to call out Hive Fleet when we begin collecting Tyranids, and all our 40K armies have custom paint jobs.

While I may not agree with all of the listed options, I'm glad to have some! I am now considering grabbing a small Dark Angels or Black Templars force to complement my Guard and Wolves, in addition to taking my brother's Vanilla Marines.

At this point, I'm excited to see what this may do to named, unique characters. For example, Orks are Allies of Convenience with Guard and Necrons. But could you see any Orks in an army that also included Commissar Yarrick or Imotekh the Stormlord? Or perhaps you could take both of them in an army and get Preferred Enemy: Orks?

There's all kinds of possibilities with allies.

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 Post subject: Re: necessary allies
PostPosted: Wed Jul 04, 2012 11:32 pm 
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I've already managed to squeeze allies into a few games.

Here's the thing, in order to fit in a few allies, I had to sacrifice a bunch of units from my main army, even at an 1850 point game. This is the key most people are missing.

Let's say you play Chaos Marines. Well after you fit in your HQ, your compliment of Plague Marines, and the full issue of Obliterators, there's just not enough room to spam much else, even IG! I barely managed to fit in a single Leman Russ after taking the minimum HQ and Vet squad.

I wish all the cheese hunters good luck, because they're going to need it. At the end of the day, for the smaller games (around 1500-1850) there's just not much cheese you can throw in there. Once you get up to 2000 and 2500, where the FOC doubles, then maybe, but I foresee fewer tournaments playing at those high points.


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 Post subject: Re: necessary allies
PostPosted: Thu Jul 05, 2012 2:20 am 
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Quote:
Here's the thing, in order to fit in a few allies, I had to sacrifice a bunch of units from my main army, even at an 1850 point game. This is the key most people are missing.


This is what I was thinking also.

People need to ask themselves:
How often do you field 2 HQs?
-If the answer is seldom, then why? Now how will you fit that 200-300point HQ+Troop you need for allies?
-If the answer is all the time, then how much points does that cost you, and what in your army can you drop to get the allies.


I tried making a Dark Eldar + Eldar army yesterday and I ended up scrapping it because of what Dark Eldar units I wanted (/needed) for other synergies. That doesn't mean I won't replace some of it in the future though.

Also keep in mind at 2000 points you get a second FOC (which means a second ally) This could mean some super nasty "cheese", but not untill the 4000-5000 point games, at 2000 points you would have nothing but troops and HQs if you tried that.


PS: there is a reason I seldom field 4 HQs as a Space Wolves player :)


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 Post subject: Re: necessary allies
PostPosted: Thu Jul 05, 2012 9:42 am 
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TheAurgelmir wrote:
Also keep in mind at 2000 points you get a second FOC (which means a second ally) This could mean some super nasty "cheese", but not untill the 4000-5000 point games, at 2000 points you would have nothing but troops and HQs if you tried that.
^ This is exactly what I've been thinking on this whole ordeal. Yeah, allies are cool, and they aren't going to break a game. By the time you've added a large Blood Angels force to your Imperial Guard, that's taking away from the points of your Guard; why not just play Blood Angels then?

I'm surprised that I haven't seen any restrictions on this, like in the way of percentages. I'm thinking something similar to Fantasy, where you have to have so much in Core choice, etc. Then again, the small Allied FOC probably takes care of that.

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 Post subject: Re: necessary allies
PostPosted: Thu Jul 05, 2012 12:44 pm 
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[quote="BunkhouseBuster"
I'm surprised that I haven't seen any restrictions on this, like in the way of percentages. I'm thinking something similar to Fantasy, where you have to have so much in Core choice, etc. Then again, the small Allied FOC probably takes care of that.[/quote]

Well there is a restriction on it, 1 HQ 2 Troops 1 of each of the rest. It's just that this is a whole lot. But at the same time works as a self regulator in the sense that we can not cherry pick everything.


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 Post subject: Re: necessary allies
PostPosted: Thu Jul 05, 2012 4:29 pm 
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an example of mine would be a command squad, 3 valkyries, 2 veteran squads and possibly a storm trooper squad... no idea the points but would love to see it

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