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 Post subject: Re: General 40k tactica
PostPosted: Wed Sep 07, 2011 9:22 am 
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Eldar can play the reserves game very well, thx to their speed and the abilites of chars, like Autarchs. De can do this to a lesser extent too.


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 Post subject: Re: General 40k tactica
PostPosted: Wed Sep 07, 2011 8:21 pm 
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For Dark Eldar reserves don't work quite as well, as we cannot take the beating of a full turn of fire on part of our army, and we have no reserve roll modifiers in our army. What we can do very well however is manipulate who has first turn.

Between Baron Sathonyx and Asdrubael Vect we can take/hand over first turn like it's nobody's business. That said, together they are very expensive, and imo belong in two different lists.

Still, with just the Baron, you're statistically chosing who goes first 67% of the time, while with Vect you are going first 75% of the time (not to mention how much that 4+ screws with your opponent's head, when they win that initial roll off).


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 Post subject: Re: General 40k tactica
PostPosted: Fri Sep 09, 2011 11:39 am 
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I may not be a veteran wargamer, but some things that I have seen people struggling with are target priority, unit simplification, goals, and HQ/heavy over-reliance so maybe this will help some of the newer players.

Target Priority: This is just something that could win or lose the game for you (no pressure). Seriously though, it is important to be able to pick out which targets are more important than others tactically. For example, 2/3 of the time a game will be objective based, which means that killing off troop choices should actually be one of your first objectives in the game, and if killing a troop unit means you don't kill a Landraider or Hammerhead, that is fine. An opponant without troops cannot win an objective based game unless they table you. Otherwise, they can tie at best. After their troop choices, you want to take a look at what your opponant has that can really hurt your army, while also keeping in mind if it will be more effort than it is worth.

Example: For an Orks army, a unit of 10 Assault Terminators with thunder hammers and storm shields and a Captain or Chapter Master is actually a lower priority than an enemy Whirlwind or Vindicator, because these can take out large groups of Orks easily AND they are easier to kill.

Unit simplification: This really boils down to "What does my unit do and do I really need all of the upgrades." If you keep your units simple and give them a single task to carry out then you will have a cheaper and more effective unit and you will still have more points to use elsewhere in your army.

Example: A Devastator squad with four lascannons does not need melta bombs. Save 5 points. The Sergeant also doesn't need any close combat weapons or combi-weapons. Save 10+ points. If they are Devastators you probably want them to stay more or less still so that they can fire at maximum capacity, so you don't need a rhino, razorback, or drop pod. Save 35+ points.

Goals: An important, but simple, way to use your army is to pick a goal for each unit and stick to it. It is okay if some units do not make their points cost back because they are helping your army in the long game.

Example: A Tau Hammerhead is a pain for most players because of its powerful gun combined with an extremely long range. In that case, I task a Venerable dreadnought with a multi-melta and drop pod to drop in next to, though preferably behind, the Hammerhead and kill it. Then my opponant must respond to the threat, likely by using another Hammerhead or their battle suits. This means that pressure is taken off of the rest of my army, leaving them free to accomplish their goals.

HQ/Heavy Over-reliance: The last thing that is important to remember is that your HQ and Heavy support units are not going to win the game for you. They are both very powerful, but they also both tend to be a single smalle unit/model, which means that a lucky shot can wipe them out and throw you off your game.

Example: This one comes from a game I played against a Tyranid army. My opponant ran two Hive Tyrants, both with maxed out options, and 6 Carnifexes with maximum close combat options. This meant that he had very few troops and fast attack to use against me, depending almost exclusivly upon his 'fexes and Tyrants to win the game for him. He quit when I was able to mow down both tyrants and all but one of his 'fexes before he was able to reach me.

I hope that this helped some of the newer gamers out there, and I more than welcome any constructive criticism. Happy Wargaming.


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 Post subject: Re: General 40k tactica
PostPosted: Fri Sep 09, 2011 5:29 pm 
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Polaris3000 wrote:
I may not be a veteran wargamer, but some things that I have seen people struggling with are target priority, unit simplification, goals, and HQ/heavy over-reliance so maybe this will help some of the newer players.
You are just correcting rookies mistakes however I think you over simplify things. I think you want a discussion so i'll add the following :).
Target Priority: Stating troops will be near the top of priorities is a bit extreme. Choosing who to go after is a balance that changes through out the game. You mean more be careful who you shoot and assault and move towards which is a good idea :).

Unit simplification:The flipside is flexibility. I would say it is more accurate to talk about wasteful upgrades. Some units are best as one trick ponies in a list others not.

Goals: Firstly I know you mean that new players are never decisive enough and will be put off by a few causalities. Sticking to strict roles for units is crazy. If your tank killer can not see the tank you let the assault unit do it as long as you have not simplified them. The broader point of making sure you will have a use for each unit is important.

HQ/Heavy Over-reliance: This is really iffy. There are loads of great lists that only take two troops options. Yes tyranids have issues getting to an army but Hive tryrant with wings and trygons are awesome.

I hope that this helped some of the newer gamers out there, and I more than welcome any constructive criticism. Happy Wargaming.


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 Post subject: Re: General 40k tactica
PostPosted: Sat Sep 10, 2011 1:09 am 
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MFletch wrote:
Polaris3000 wrote:
I may not be a veteran wargamer, but some things that I have seen people struggling with are target priority, unit simplification, goals, and HQ/heavy over-reliance so maybe this will help some of the newer players.
You are just correcting rookies mistakes however I think you over simplify things. I think you want a discussion so i'll add the following :).That is exactly what I was looking for. :D
Target Priority: Stating troops will be near the top of priorities is a bit extreme. Choosing who to go after is a balance that changes through out the game. You mean more be careful who you shoot and assault and move towards which is a good idea :).
Absolutely, as the game changes and flows priorities shift. When I was talking about troops being high priority I was thinking more in terms of when they are vulnerable and you can kill them without significant retaliation.

Unit simplification:The flipside is flexibility. I would say it is more accurate to talk about wasteful upgrades. Some units are best as one trick ponies in a list others not.
Yeah, you are right about this bit. I kind of tend to jump to conclusions that other people, especially newer gamers, might not reach. I did mean wasteful upgrades, like melta bombs on a devastator sergeant or two different close special close combat weapons on a Captain.

Goals: Firstly I know you mean that new players are never decisive enough and will be put off by a few causalities. Sticking to strict roles for units is crazy. If your tank killer can not see the tank you let the assault unit do it as long as you have not simplified them. The broader point of making sure you will have a use for each unit is important.
Again, me jumping to conclusions and skipping the stuff in the middle. I meant in a sort of broader sense than unit A must accomplish goal X by turn 3. It was meant to be more of a way to focus the units in the army, rather than just reacting as the situation changes. Absolutely though, if there is a better target, then go get it.

HQ/Heavy Over-reliance: This is really iffy. There are loads of great lists that only take two troops options. Yes tyranids have issues getting to an army but Hive tryrant with wings and trygons are awesome.
I was really only using the nids as a personal example. In this case I more mean when people take tooled up heavies and heroes at the expense of the rest of their army. It could be Guard army with nine leman russ tanks. Sure the tanks would be powerful, but they would be sacrificing their elite and fast attack options. I was just meaning that it is better to try and balance what units players take.

I hope that this helped some of the newer gamers out there, and I more than welcome any constructive criticism. Happy Wargaming.

Thanks for taking the time to read what I wrote and providing constructive criticism. I am still fairly new at Warhammer 40k, so it is great to have more experienced gamers like you providing your own thoughts and knowledge. Cheers!


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 Post subject: Re: General 40k tactica
PostPosted: Sat Sep 10, 2011 3:41 am 
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Polaris3000 wrote:
Thanks for taking the time to read what I wrote and providing constructive criticism. I am still fairly new at Warhammer 40k, so it is great to have more experienced gamers like you providing your own thoughts and knowledge. Cheers!
It is not really criticism you were explaining common mistakes you've seen. I was just expanding the points. I have actually seen people take advice out of context and crazy decisions based on sound advice.

Happy Wargamming :)


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 Post subject: Re: General 40k tactica
PostPosted: Sat Sep 10, 2011 11:30 am 
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MFletch wrote:
It is not really criticism you were explaining common mistakes you've seen. I was just expanding the points. I have actually seen people take advice out of context and crazy decisions based on sound advice.

Happy Wargamming :)


Yeah, but it is still good to hear a second opinion or get a different point of view so that as many possibilities are covered or are clarified.


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 Post subject: Re: General 40k tactica
PostPosted: Sun Sep 18, 2011 1:33 am 
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A note before I begin: this tactical insert will heavily borrow from Malorian's Orc Tactical Team Podcasts. Though they are based around the Warhammer Fantasy game, I feel that many of the tactics he shares are equally relevant to Warhammer 40,000, especially in his earlier videos.

A link to his podcasts:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S4foKK-ljLU


So, without further adieu, on with the Tactica:

The game of Warhammer 40,000 can be broken down into five main aspects: Mathammer, Spacehammer, Synergyhammer, Psychohammer, and Metahammer.

Mathhammer
Mathhammer is simply the knowledge of probabilities. Before you see any models, or start comparing units in a codex, you can look at that unit of Khorne Berzerkers and say, "a full unit can put down 40 attacks on the charge", "against your basic MEQ, this squad will be hitting an average of about 27 times, and scoring an average of about 18 wounds".

Once you've mastered the probabilities of 40k, and can think ahead to approximately what should happen in a given scenario, you can more easily avoid situations where you grossly under or over commit resources to perform a task, whether it be knocking out that pesky Land Raider, or weathering an assault from that mob of Slugga Boyz.

This will heavily influence your movement and how you commit your resources.


Spacehammer
Spacehammer is the game of models and measuring tapes. This concept is a little bit more abstract than mathhammer, and so is often disregarded by players who have learned the game through Theoryhammer - kicking around theories away from tabletop - but ignoring spacehammer is ignoring a large part of the game.

Spacehammer refers to the use of models to block enemy line of sight, limit enemy movement, and maximize the effect of aura-type abilities such as that of the Ork Kustom Force Field.

Its two main concerns are your movement of a model, and the footprint of that model on the battlefield. The distance a model can move and whether they have special deployment/movement rules (certain units can deploy further forward, enter play by way of the table edges, deep strike, and even ignore intervening terrain) can determine whether it should be used to hit vehicle side armour or deny cover to a unit (such as with Necron Destroyers), or as a stationary or slow moving gun platform (such as with the Space Marine Predator). This also tells you what your main contesting units will be, when you want to do those last turn grabs for objectives.

The space a model takes up allows you to create firing and movement lines (hiding Blood Angel's Mephiston behind a Land Raider is a popular example of this), block enemy charges ("speed bump"), and grant your own models cover. In addition it takes into account their ability to squeeze into hard to reach places and how effectively they can fan out to deny your opponent premium deep strike locations.

"Modeling for advantage" is probably one of the most common references to this element of tactics. When an Ork player uses a looted Land Raider for his or her battlewagon, they are extending the range of their Kustom Force Field. When a Space Marine player attatches both twin-linked lascannons on their Land Raider on one side, they can stick it in a corner making an objective they place there more difficult to contest, and thus almost guaranteeing them one objective. Such examples are of player's abusing Spacehammer, attempting to get the most from their models, so to speak.

Consider how far towards the flanks you want to place your heavy weapons teams if your opponent has a squad of Genestealers capable of outflanking directly onto your position, or how close you want to place your Land Raider to that Multi-Melta. Also, realize that real threat range is not just the range statistic on the gun, but rather the distance the model can move and still shoot you with the weapon.


Synergyhammer
Synergyhammer discusses how effectively two or more units work together to create something greater than they could have as independent elements. Consider the Chaos Space Marine's Lash of Submission for a moment. It allows you to move a single unit 2D6".

Now really, what can that do on its own? It can move an enemy off of an objective last turn, but for the previous 6 turns it's doing nothing by itself. Add a Vindicator to the equation. On its own it can deliver a single S10 AP2 Large Blast. Very powerful, and rather large, but when your opponent sees that on the other side of the field, they will immediately space out their units, so you'll hit maybe 5, 6 models tops?

However, with that 2D6" movement from Lash of Submission, you're suddenly fitting 12+ models under that very same blast marker.

In a game where almost every army has to specialize the roles of each unit, finding the Synergy in your army can win or lose you the game in the deployment phase. Before you even finalize a list, you should have a very good idea of what each unit will be doing on the battlefield, and how they will be interacting to achieve better results.


Psychohammer
Psychohammer is the application of psychology to Warhammer. It can be as simple as talking your opponent up before and during the game, to convince them of questionable moves (ex. "let's play for a draw - we can't really afford coming up against those top tables" (tournament) - your opponent is now more likely to deploy objectives and models defensively: bad news for them if they are playing an offensive army like Orks or Tyranids), to something a little more game based, like having a Vindicator ready to pounce if they attempt to come in close to engage - your opponent will not want to come into that 30" threat range if they can help it.

Getting your opponent to roll dice is always a good way of getting them edgy. Forcing lots of Leadership tests for example, even against leadership 8 or 9, will get them worried about failing one of these tests, and get them to commit resources to taking the offending model out. The edgier they get, the more likely they are to make a mistake, and target the wrong unit, or expose a flank unnecessarily.

This does not mean go into every game you play and just piss the opponent right off though - remember that it is still a game, and the most important thing is that both parties have fun. Just remember that there is that psychological aspect, and that when the competition gets fierce, you can always pull it out of your bag of tricks.


Metahammer
Metahammer is adapting to the environment in which you are playing. As with any game, there are certain strategies that counter others quite effectively. If you're facing a lot of mechanized armies, you'll want more AT than someone who plays in a meta with very few vehicles, and vice versa for AP fire. If your opponents typically bring gunline armies, then you will want to bring lots of deep strikers, out flankers, and models that can move quickly up the battlefield. If you're facing a lot of very fast armies, you may wish to bring a reserve army. And so on...

If you are playing in a meta where Razorbacks are just being spammed all to hell, you may want to slap down 180 Slugga Boyz one day, and watch as their lascannons and plasmaguns each pick off only a single boy each turn, until your Green Tide slams into your opponent and wipes them out. Then watch as suddenly no one spams razorbacks anymore.

If you play in a meta with lots of Imperial Guard players that create those mechanized gun lines for which the Imperial Guard are so infamous, you may wish to simply slap down some drop pods, and make sure that you take away that first turn alpha strike on which they are relying so heavily.


If you have any thoughts or suggestions on this tactica piece, please feel free to pick out any details you feel that I glossed over, or that you disagree with altogether.


Last edited by Chief on Sun Sep 18, 2011 12:29 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: General 40k tactica
PostPosted: Sun Sep 18, 2011 6:46 am 
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The stupid mathhammer. People tend to look at averages rather than any useful statistics.
I will give one example
You have 4 reserves without any special abilities.
Mathhammer tells you that you will on average have 2 units coming on in the second turn.
However there is about 1/3 chance that you will only get one unit or none at all. The point being you can not rely on getting the average.

However now you take Tigurius.
Mathhammer tells you second turn will give you 3 units.
However, that is not why Tigurius is good. He is great because it 75% chance you have at least the 3 units coming on and moreover 95% chance you'll get 2 or more. This means you can rely on two reinforcements and even play that you will indeed get 3.

If you go for Hive commander and Swarm lord.
5/6 chance of getting a unit on gives you 87% chance you will have at least 3.

This is just the grumble about statistics. Mathhammer tends not to look at likelihoods of situations and the possible huge side effects of not getting the average.


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 Post subject: Re: General 40k tactica
PostPosted: Sun Sep 18, 2011 9:39 am 
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It depends. If we are talking about a handful of rolls, such as with reserves, then yes, the probability of an event is far more important than the average number of times it should come to pass.

On the other hand, in a situation where you are rolling lots of dice, such as in the example provided, I would much rather know the average number of times it will occur.


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 Post subject: Re: General 40k tactica
PostPosted: Sun Sep 18, 2011 12:50 pm 
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Chief wrote:
It depends. If we are talking about a handful of rolls, such as with reserves, then yes, the probability of an event is far more important than the average number of times it should come to pass.

On the other hand, in a situation where you are rolling lots of dice, such as in the example provided, I would much rather know the average number of times it will occur.
Not really talking about your interpretation, you make it clear that we should understand the probabilities :).
I think my example shows how even with only 4 rolls the variance with Tigurius is small. So the situation is more than just looking at the number of dice rolls to work out how much attention we pay to the average.

Something like sanguinary guards(with a priest nearby) vs termies(PF) you would say looking at averages and by looking at 15 rolls on the charge that the assault termies do not stand a chance. However, if they roll slightly badly then the termies will destroy them. Tons of people will conclude that the guard is near certain win from making average calculations.


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 Post subject: Re: General 40k tactica
PostPosted: Sun Sep 18, 2011 1:11 pm 
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A very valid point MFletch.
Mathhammer should not simply be done with pen and paper. Pull out some dice, and try doing the rolls a few times. Lootas, for example, have an average of 2 shots and .67 hits, but what they will achieve will fluxuate a lot, depending on that initial D3. If you roll a 1, they only average .3 hits apiece, and with a 3, it goes up to about 1 hit apiece.

How lucky a player is with their dice rolls can also influence the amount of resources they'll commit to a task. If I often roll above average when firing splinter weapons, maybe I don't want to use all four of those venoms to knock off the final three wounds of a Trygon, but rather go flat out to contest an objective with one of them and hope the other three will get at least average, and knock him off mine..


Last edited by Chief on Sun Sep 18, 2011 2:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: General 40k tactica
PostPosted: Sun Sep 18, 2011 1:57 pm 
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I tend to use Mathhammer to find out what is the most effective option. I forget where I put the page of calculations, but I spent a while finding out how effective various Trueborn Anti-infantry loadouts were (Including Duke, Splinter Rifles with Splinter Racks vs Carbines, Raider with Disintegrator vs Venom with 2x Cannon against Marines, etc). My Eldar friend calculated that Witchblades were the Eldar's most cost-effective way to kill Monoliths.

In addition, doing Mathhammer in Study Hall makes it look like you are doing Math homework instead of killing time :P

EDIT**
For those who are curious, these were the results from the Dark Eldar calculations that I remember:

  • Poison 3+ Rifles = Rifles with Splinter Racks
  • With Duke: Carbines > Rifles + Splinter Racks at 18"
  • With Duke: Carbines < Rifles + Splinter Racks at 12"
  • Disintegrator = 2x Splinter Cannons against MEQ

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Last edited by Rangrok1k on Sun Sep 25, 2011 6:33 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: General 40k tactica
PostPosted: Sun Sep 25, 2011 6:17 pm 
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I agree that taking the math to the board can enlighten people.. there's nothing like seeing it in action, but I wouldn't do "mathhammer" by rolling dice and seeing what happens.
If you wanna look at potential.. it's right there in your codex.. the maximum and minimum effect a unit can cause and the outcomes with the highest and lowest probabilities (luck) is easily quantifiable.
Some people say luck nullifies mathhammer "stop doing math, it's pointless in a game with luck!", but I say it completes the math.

I can confirm Rangrok1k's DE math as I've done the same lol.
Great minds think alike and all that jazz..
I'd like to save some people time confirming by saying it works out if you use the heavy profile for the two splinter cannons (like a venom). :P

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 Post subject: Re: General 40k tactica
PostPosted: Sun Sep 25, 2011 6:39 pm 
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Also, in my experience, Mathhammer tends to open my eyes to combos I normally ignore.

For example, using a Venomthrope to give a brood of Gaunts a 5+ Cover save, and then use a Tervigon to give those Gaunts Feel No Pain. This is the statistical equivalent to a 3+ armor save, minus the weakness to ap3.

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