1750 the New Standard?

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Ronin
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1750 the New Standard?

Post by Ronin » Sat May 19, 2018 5:43 pm

GW is shifting its tournament scene from 2000 to 1750 in the latest Warhammer World Grand Tournament packet.

https://warhammerworld.games-workshop.c ... ournament/

Thoughts? Will you be adapting or bringing out the torches and pitchforks? I personally am excited to try this out since it'll bring a fresh air to list building for pick up and standard games around my community and keep folks on their toes. Sounds like a challenge! ;)

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Re: 1750 the New Standard?

Post by hislittlecuzin » Sun May 20, 2018 2:52 am

Eye of Terror (Real swearing with real life bad places isn't allowed) I'm aiming for 500 point armies. I heard that's the standard of my new local shop & after playing countless games of 3000 points for 6~ hours at a time... I'm glad to not spend half an hour in my movement phases.

I think the drop to 1750 is a bit better.
At 2000 points I feel you can spam units too much/become forced to.

With units moderately dropping in points over the past few editions (3rd edition IG Vanquisher at 180 points-135 points 6th edition AM) it's almost been called for. Considering it was maybe 10~ years between IG's introduction to 6th edition, cutting down the tournament scene points values feels necessary.
I'm surprised it hasn't dropped to 1500 already. Back in late 6th Edition I met a group of guys that preferred 1500 for their "small" games that last 1-2 hours. In a tournament, time feels more of an essence. You can't expect people to get to the place at 5 in the morning and play till 5 at night spending 3~5 hours per game. Winners would be defaulted to those with the endurance to bear it.

Though I don't play in tournaments so my opinion is quite moot, I still believe this is a better idea. In smaller games your units are worth more (IE, I destroyed his tank.) as opposed to larger battles. (I destroyed one of his tanks.)
Additionally many large team battles end with the victor being the guy that went first. Yeah, you may have 10 squads of guys, but I do too. I shoot first and now you START with 7 squads of guys vs my 10 squads because I have enough guns to cripple 30% of your army redundant.

List building:
The first 1000 point Space Marine Army I found on google:
[+] Expand
From Bolter and Chainsword Forum:
http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/topi ... -pts-list/

Librarian
2 troop squads
1 land speeder
1 predator
1 stormtalon
2 transports

That's a pretty good small army. He's got about 1 of each main department. 1 tank, 1 flyer, 1 scout, 1 psychic and 2 troops choices. It's pretty well rounded.
The first 2000 point army I found on google.
[+] Expand
Bolter and chainsword:
http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/topi ... army-list/

Captain
Librarian
3 tactical squads
3 transports

New Detachment
Lieutenant
2 dreadnoughts
1 tank
1 whirlwind

Another detachment
Techmarine
2 predators
another artillery unit

That's just overkill... Yeah he has a nice troops department but... 2 dreadnoughts? 3 tanks? 2 artillery pieces? 3 HQ choices? This is getting out of hand... An argument could be "But it has some forge-world units" (I translated to noob words) but here's another list that looks 90+% GW in the same thread that isn't much better:
[+] Expand
Battalion
Captain - master crafted riffle, p. Sword burning blade
Lieutenant - master crafted riffle, p. Sword

Tactical squad (5man) plasma combi plasma
Tactical squad (5man) plasma combi plasma
Tactical squad (5man) plasma combi plasma

Razorback - assault cannon
Razorback - assault cannon
Razorback - assault cannon

Spearhead
Techamrine
Predator - las sponsons
Predator - las sponsons
Devastator - (8man) 4 missiles, armour. Cherub

Vanguard
Librarian
Company ancient
Cataphractii terminators - 4 fists 1 flamer sgt with sword
Sicaran -las spnsons
That's just 2-3 armies. I feel that it comes a point when it goes from strategic targeting of enemy units to just blowing everything up because there's just too much.

I recall a time in 4th edition that I saw some people playing in the store & there was 1 tank on the whole table.
I hope my essay doesn't drive away any further discussion.
Guardsmen are like ants. No matter how many get vaporized, they just keep on coming. Why can't pancakes be the same? I would pass the salt, but I just got tabled.

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Re: 1750 the New Standard?

Post by Koonitz » Sun May 20, 2018 3:40 am

But you can do that in 1,500 points too. So long as you are free to take any detachment (and however many you want, barring the suggested tournament restrictions), you can still take "lots of tanks or artillery" with relative ease. For example, this is a 100% legal Thousand Sons list:
[+] Expand
Spearhead
Ahriman on Disc
Predator with autocannon/lascannons
Predator with autocannon/lascannons
Predator with autocannon/lascannons

Spearhead
Exalted Sorcerer on Disc
Vindicator w/ combi-bolter
Vindicator w/ combi-bolter
Vindicator w/ combi-bolter
This clocks in at 1,228. Sprinkle cultists or Tzaangors in as desired for objective grabbing (or enlightened for rapid response objective grabbing). If an Imperial player did this, they'd still have more than enough points to take a Guard command point farm battalion (180 points for 2 commanders and 3 infantry squads) to ensure they still have enough command points to play with and infantry to cap objectives.

My problem with going smaller in 8th is that you are essentially required to add restrictions to prevent janky or gimmicky lists, which become more apparent. If you find a game-breaking combo, that combo is less impressive at 2,000 points, or 2,500 points, or 3,000. But at 1,500, or 1,000, or 500, could make the list hard or nearly impossible to stop unless you happen to have the proper counter-list. What if someone were to add Magnus, or Mortarion, into their 1,500 point list? Could your 1,500 point list counter it? What about 1,000? What if you were prepared to counter Magnus and you faced off against a 150 infantry Guard army?

In other words, the smaller the points level, the more rock-paper-scissors the game becomes.

Personally, I wish we could go back to the simple days of the old force org chart, where you could take no more than 3 heavy support and could bloody deal with it or stuff it (and none of this "tank squadron" or "dreadnought talon" bullhonkey). Any army that couldn't fit in the old force org chart should have been designed to fit into it in the first place (Imperial Knight players can deal with a full Lord of War army by playing in narrative or Apoc games, or accept only having one Lord of War slot for a single Knight).

But, in any event, so much for 8th being "so much faster". From what I'm reading, it's worse than it's ever been for finishing games in time.
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40k: Knights Cynosure Iron Hands successor chapter, House Terryn Questor Imperialis, Thousand Sons/Tzeentch Daemons
30k: Thousand Sons
Age of Sigmar: Sylvaneth, Disciples of Tzeentch

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Re: 1750 the New Standard?

Post by Jeffers » Sun May 20, 2018 9:50 am

I have never played in a tournament and have no intention since i like narrative play.

From what i seen around here i find smaller point games can be crippling if you kill that one unit or get 1st turn. Ive seen people tabled turn one quite frequently.

With a bigger point game i find there's more freedom since losing that one unit is less detrimental eg 10% of the army rather than say 25% in the smaller game.

Who knows what may happen since faq and erratas are in play more frequently and gw are observing more

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Re: 1750 the New Standard?

Post by Koonitz » Sun May 20, 2018 12:46 pm

Jeffers wrote:
Sun May 20, 2018 9:50 am
From what i seen around here i find smaller point games can be crippling if you kill that one unit or get 1st turn. Ive seen people tabled turn one quite frequently.
Personally, I don't have too much issue with this, narratively. As an example, I did play in a 500 point tournament with Tau, back in 7th Edition, where I faced off against a Black Templar player with a Sicaran assault tank (and not much else). It was an enjoyable ambush, seeing if I could engage and destroy the out-of-position tank, being escorted back to its forces. I won that game with a late turn series of blind luck, with my commander surviving a lascannon shot from the sponson by kicking up the chassis of one of his downed gun drones and using it as a shield to deflect the beam (1 to wound), twisting and bringing his fusion gun up, beneath the drone for one well-placed shot that penetrated (note, he had ceramite armour, which ignored the extra d6 penetration) and detonated the vehicle.

As a tournament, it was a little frustrating, with people bringing gimmicky lists like that, and the riptide list (imagine dealing with a Riptide at 500 points), which I also beat. I ended up tying for 1st place with a 12 year old kid who played a "point and click" eldar scatbike spam list (telling anyone who doesn't remember, exactly how nonsensical Eldar scatbike lists were), which was just another nail in the coffin of me playing competitively, but as a narrative scenario, I think it was, and would be, an enjoyable game.

Though the first turn advantage does need to be curbed somewhat. In Age of Sigmar, it's curbed by virtue of having a limitation on the number of shooting units, meaning first turn is often disadvantageous. In 40k, especially in 8th, with the increase in lethality of many weapons, a well orchestrated first turn can cripple your opponents ability to counter. Especially if you play a gimmicky list like "lots of heavy armour" or "lots of infantry" (which means you only need to target the portion of a "take-all-comers" opponent's army designed to counter yours).

Most of the time, however, I counter the first turn shenanigans with some good line-of-sight blocking terrain. And by good, I mean lots of it. There are so many boards where a single Leman Russ battle tank can relatively easily be position to see all, or almost all, of the opponent's deployment zone. What's the point? Where's the strategy in positioning then? Just plunk your big guns down and hope to get first turn. If line of sight is disrupted so much so that you'll have difficulty getting more than half your army able to fire at a given enemy unit, it's a lot harder to focus fire those key units on turn one, forcing you to move.

You'll also note the last two major apoc games done by Miniwargaming were done on two boards. By splitting the boards and forces up, it makes it harder for you to focus on key units like enemy titans and super-heavies. This is a similar concept to the use of line of sight blocking terrain to split up your firepower.
Armies:
40k: Knights Cynosure Iron Hands successor chapter, House Terryn Questor Imperialis, Thousand Sons/Tzeentch Daemons
30k: Thousand Sons
Age of Sigmar: Sylvaneth, Disciples of Tzeentch

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Re: 1750 the New Standard?

Post by Mecha82 » Sun May 20, 2018 1:02 pm

While I find 1750pts to give plenty of room when building army personally I tend to prefer 1500pts when ever it's possible. Generally 1500pts tend to give some room while also making sure that neither player can go overboard with they choices and keeping games reasonable sized.
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Re: 1750 the New Standard?

Post by Ronin » Mon May 21, 2018 1:08 am

I've been remaking my lists and it's definitely a fresh challenge and I have to think a bit harder what to include. Tried the format today with my Iyanden and its too short ranged and anti infantry heavy to be effective against our mech/monster leaning meta.

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Re: 1750 the New Standard?

Post by Nexus_Crawler » Fri Jun 08, 2018 10:06 am

I am running a 1750 point ITC event later on this month and some people are opting out because of the low points count. However, I have played a few games and the limit reduces alpha strikes significantly. Deployment, movement, and list building for multi-purpose battlefield rules are huge. Add that all together with large LOS blocking terrain and them movement and CC become even more important.

Personally, I love 1750 as it adds more than it takes away.
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Re: 1750 the New Standard?

Post by Koonitz » Fri Jun 08, 2018 11:01 am

Nexus_Crawler wrote:
Fri Jun 08, 2018 10:06 am
Personally, I love 1750 as it adds more than it takes away.
On the other hand, 30k tends to encourage the exact opposite. 2,500 points is pretty common. Then again, a Spartan with flare shield + Primarch + 10-man specialist terminator squad tends to be bloody expensive for 12 models....
Armies:
40k: Knights Cynosure Iron Hands successor chapter, House Terryn Questor Imperialis, Thousand Sons/Tzeentch Daemons
30k: Thousand Sons
Age of Sigmar: Sylvaneth, Disciples of Tzeentch

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Re: 1750 the New Standard?

Post by Ronin » Fri Jun 08, 2018 3:11 pm

Unfortunately, my community voted to stick to 2k.

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Re: 1750 the New Standard?

Post by Mach-Ten » Mon Jun 11, 2018 6:27 am

have played a few of both 2k and 1750 recently and I'm amazed at how much difference the 250 pts makes

1750- games are at least an hour shorter for the full 5 turns (Necrons, T'au, Chaos, Tyranids etc. were the most played)
the unit options are suddenly restricted so that you can't throw in a massive powerful unit without suffering in another aspect of list building
resulting in Alpha strikes being less pronounced
resulting in more fun games

2000 - games are longer,
more toys means whoever gets T1 get more chance to obliterate player 2
less fun all round as P2 has to try and recover from that loss with inadequate tools.

We're going to play a few at 1500 and see how it goes ... but 1750 has been a success.. the only real downside is that some guys have some expensive toys and they don't get games thta often so they feel obliged to put as much on a table as possible ..

I don't think they have 'more' or 'better' fun doing this, but each to their own

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Re: 1750 the New Standard?

Post by Nexus_Crawler » Mon Jun 11, 2018 11:42 am

Koonitz wrote:
Fri Jun 08, 2018 11:01 am
On the other hand, 30k tends to encourage the exact opposite. 2,500 points is pretty common. Then again, a Spartan with flare shield + Primarch + 10-man specialist terminator squad tends to be bloody expensive for 12 models....
30k is morte like warmachine than the current edition of 30k. small mistakes in list design or movement will right up tank a game.
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