New Edition fear

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Re: New Edition fear

Post by Ronin » Fri Jun 08, 2018 9:41 am

Which is funny because he doesn't post a link to their site or has a signature, either.

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Re: New Edition fear

Post by Koonitz » Fri Jun 08, 2018 10:42 am

Mach-Ten wrote:
Fri Jun 08, 2018 8:56 am
Ronin wrote:
Thu Jun 07, 2018 11:23 am
Some reviewers do go through the art and lore, but yeah for the most part it's all crunch. (I do love how Warzone40k never posts back. I'm pretty sure he just mass drops the review on multiple sites).
They are a seller of 40K stuff like vinyl mats etc., I get the impression they post "reviews" in order to draw traffic to their site

and the reviews are mostly just superficial mutterings, not really any in depth review that I've seen.
Warzone40k did, indeed, start their reviews with a link to their site and a "To read more, see here" director. It was decided that this was effectively advertising for another site, and against forum rules. They decided to remove the link. They've never, to my knowledge, followed up any post with any actual involvement in conversation.
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Re: New Edition fear

Post by Arnathos » Sat Jun 09, 2018 11:49 am

Speaking of reviews, things like my Tactica Imperialis for 7th edition was mostly focussed on whether something was good or bad, so I have to admit that I am guilty of stuff like that as well. Should there ever be a 8th edition one I might change the format a bit though!
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Re: New Edition fear

Post by Ronin » Mon Jun 11, 2018 12:15 am

Tacticas I think are fine because that's what to expect, but when people talk about a codex review there's a lot more to a codex than those dozen pages of stats and crunch.

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Re: New Edition fear

Post by Bojazz » Mon Jun 11, 2018 7:52 am

Koonitz wrote:
Fri Jun 08, 2018 10:42 am
They've never, to my knowledge, followed up any post with any actual involvement in conversation.
I did some detective work and I found a single instance in which warzone40k actually responded to the comments on one of their threads. Just one though :lol:
viewtopic.php?t=123016
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Re: New Edition fear

Post by Mach-Ten » Mon Jun 11, 2018 9:54 am

Bojazz wrote:
Mon Jun 11, 2018 7:52 am
Koonitz wrote:
Fri Jun 08, 2018 10:42 am
They've never, to my knowledge, followed up any post with any actual involvement in conversation.
I did some detective work and I found a single instance in which warzone40k actually responded to the comments on one of their threads. Just one though :lol:
viewtopic.php?t=123016
they do the same on Reddit and I presume other places ... dump a wall o text and vanish..

I agree with whoever said that 40K was devolving in places, into a numbers game that you could just math hammer out the result and not actually play the game and the "kids these days" are missing out on the deep lore and stuff.

but I think there's room for all kinds in the current edition, especially with all the specialist games releases.

The one thing I am desperate for right now is some more appropriate Narrative missions .. and some of the settings appendices and expansions

I know .. we have three more codexes and then we're all good !! .. but that extra fluff I'm hoping for a big mission pack and a "Betrayal at Calth" or Kauyon level book of things that represent where the story is currently at so we can play those on our tables (Official stuff, I know we can homebrew)

I'm missing the tie into the greater narrative as it's happening

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Re: New Edition fear

Post by Koonitz » Mon Jun 11, 2018 11:16 am

Mach-Ten wrote:
Mon Jun 11, 2018 9:54 am
I agree with whoever said that 40K was devolving in places, into a numbers game that you could just math hammer out the result and not actually play the game and the "kids these days" are missing out on the deep lore and stuff.

but I think there's room for all kinds in the current edition, especially with all the specialist games releases.

The one thing I am desperate for right now is some more appropriate Narrative missions .. and some of the settings appendices and expansions
The thing is, if that's all everyone ever focuses on, that's what new players are exposed to. That and, here in North America, there just seems like there's always a competitive edge to everything people do. Even in my D&D groups, there's always one or two people who build their character around the numbers, instead of the other way around.

I mean, look at how well received Age of Sigmar was both before and after competitive matched play points were released. I'm even sure most of you reading this agree with how everyone else received it. I never got a game in before, but I had absolutely no problems with not having points, because I cared about the narrative and the lore (even lacking, though it may have been).

What needs to be done is to increase exposure to alternative play styles. What I did was start a narrative campaign with a select few trusted friends. I then forced them all to play their games at the local FLGS, and I posted the occasional update to the story on the community page. This increased exposure to narrative play-styles.

I did the same thing this past weekend with the joust I did (See the "Last Game" post for that!).

Let them see that it's not all about 2,000 points, Maelstrom of War/Eternal War missions. Change things up and let them see the fun you can have.

In the end, though, I think a lot of people like and care about the lore, as it's likely what keeps the majority of us playing the game, but no one wants to take the effort to put it into their games, as, mentioned above, they care more about a balanced, competitive-lean, over a narrative lean, to their games. Hell, could say the same about Starcraft. Who plays that for the lore?
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Re: New Edition fear

Post by Mach-Ten » Mon Jun 11, 2018 11:28 am

Koonitz wrote:
Mon Jun 11, 2018 11:16 am
Hell, could say the same about Starcraft. Who plays that for the lore?
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Re: New Edition fear

Post by mrazek22 » Wed Jun 13, 2018 7:36 pm

Koonitz, I like the way you summed up your response. I guess my response to "people want the best pew pew" is that all the best pew pew is never discussed with any frequencies. Baneblades, Titans, Forgeworld crap, these rarely get discussed, but the newer stuff does. Take Deathwatch, BAs, or Necron army lists. Baneblade variants are one of the top 5 units in the game. No one uses them. Cost most likely. But same goes for things like Custards. Likely due to cost and the shunning that usually comes with rolling them out. I see your points, but I dunno. Does anyone here know WHY Baneblade's have spirits, and they are not AIs? Anyone know what the original Titans look like? Anyone remember why Sisters of Battle have white hair? I got into this for the lore, and fell in love with the hobby of modeling. But it seems like everyone just knows the new hot models.

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Re: New Edition fear

Post by blippityblip » Thu Jun 14, 2018 5:56 am

Of course, the hot new stuff is what gets people interested, it’s what people are most excited about, it’s what they want to know about, so it’s what the reviewers tell us about, you see it on all the reviews, because that’s what most people want, for instance take the new knight codex, MWG did a review and completely skipped the old knights in it, if they hadn’t it would have added another 20minutes onto the video that a lot of people wouldn’t of cared about anyway, because most people already know about them, yes granted some people watching may be completely new to knights but the vast majority won’t be. New stuff will always be the main focus of reviews because it’s new stuff, if a review spent most of its time on the currently available stuff and went into the lore etc and briefly mentioned the new stuff then people wouldn’t watch it, because it’s the new stuff that gets people excited otherwise we wouldn’t get new kits would we?

As for people not reading the lore and just playing the game, well that’s their hobby, there’s not a single correct way to do this hobby, I for one like building and collecting with an occasional casual game, some just like to paint and have no care for the game, some like to play competitive, some narrative, some want to read everything there is, some just want to play with something that looks cool and don’t care why it looks cool and some just like to convert things, there’s a dozen ways to enjoy the hobby and every single one of them is valid

Lastly because I feel like I may have strayed from what you were actually talking about, if it looks like the majority of people play a certain way in your area it doesn’t mean they do in another area, The club near where I used to live played casual games, most of the people I follow on Twitter are casual narrative gamers but that doesn’t mean there’s not places where there’s a higher number of tournament players, it’s pribably more to do with what kind of games your local clubs/shops are setting up, if they just set up tournaments then they will become the norm, if they just set up narrative campaigns then they will become the norm instead, if you want more lore driven games then try to set something up that makes people think it’s cool

Have I completely gone off topic?
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Re: New Edition fear

Post by Nexus_Crawler » Thu Jun 14, 2018 10:23 am

Ultimately the game is going to be what you and your community make of it. All reviews need to be taken with a grain of salt as the lense used to craft that review may be a touch different than the one you use to personally view the game. Arnathos's reviews are insightful, I thiught :)

I like to read reviews that highlight units as 'good or bad' but I still tend to play with them anyways. Knowing a units weakness is just as important as knowing their strength.
mrazek22 wrote:
Wed Jun 13, 2018 7:36 pm
1. Baneblade variants are one of the top 5 units in the game. No one uses them. Cost most likely.
2. Does anyone here know WHY Baneblade's have spirits, and they are not AIs?
3. But it seems like everyone just knows the new hot models.
1. the large superheavies are too easily brought low by focused fire on competative tables; so competative players stay away from them. They are a blast to play but are also $$ expensive so casual players stay clear of them too.

2. in the fluff, AI = bad. Read up on the 'Men of Iron." The spirit of the big tanks is close to an AI but is not completely autonomous... although I bet there are a lot of mechanicum adepts who break this doctrine.

3. People like the new shiny; they get clicks. If you did an unboxing review of a Tactical Squad right now, no matter how awesome tac marines are, then that video would get very little hits. I like new model reviews because I like the new sculpts but also because I love to see what my opponents will be putting out there. As I said before, knowing a units weak points is just as important as knowing their strengths.
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Re: New Edition fear

Post by Koonitz » Thu Jun 14, 2018 12:42 pm

mrazek22 wrote:
Wed Jun 13, 2018 7:36 pm
Baneblade variants are one of the top 5 units in the game.
Care to provide a source on that one?

I have never seen a Baneblade reach the top tables of the major tournaments I've read about. They're big, they go bewm a lot, but, as was said, they die very, very easily.

When the measure of a competitive list was "can it deal with Magnus or Mortarion", what hope in hell do you think a Baneblade would have? It's the exact same reason Knights were never seen, and the exact same reason hordes were (and, I believe, still are) so popular. Single, large models die. Very, very easily, to a knowledgeable competitive player.

And trust me, top tier competitive players don't care about cost. Super-heavy kits, forge world, none of that would matter. If the model is good, they will fork out to ensure they win. Period. These people buy entire armies at the slightest shift of the meta. Forge World is not as OP as you might think, and what I have just said is the exact reason why. If it were OP and could dominate tournament tables, tournament players WOULD BUY IT! Case in point, malefic lords. No models existed, sure, but they were incredibly powerful and, as such, were taken, heavily. The same people also spammed brimstone horrors, to the point of 150+ models, despite the fact that they only came in boxes of 10 paired with 10 blue horrors, for $40 CDN. That's $600+ CDN for JUST your troops.

But to a casual player, something like a Baneblade is a bit of a different challenge. Both in-game, and cost (as mentioned).

It's a big, flashy, bewmy model, and can single-handedly do a lot of damage, sure, but when it comes to winning tournaments, it's nowhere's near the top 5. In fact, it has been stated on multiple occasions that, since the Guard codex, a squad of 3 Leman Russ tanks, costing the same or less, can output equivalent or greater firepower than a single Baneblade, with more wounds and more reliability.
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Re: New Edition fear

Post by Jeffers » Sat Jun 16, 2018 1:55 pm

These days I do find forgeworld to be a lot more inline with standard gw units these days as FAQ and updates amend rules or points now. I love when people bring Fw units as it adds an extra layer to a game as they are hardly seen and I need to think that extra step of "oh what does that do?"

I hope to see more of them in the future

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