Computer designed army lists

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mrazek22
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Re: Computer designed army lists

Post by mrazek22 » Tue Apr 24, 2018 11:49 am

Well, here is the thing. With the sheer amount of errata that has been generated, and will be generated in the future, is it not fair to say: Bring you Codex, Rulebook, All FAQs, All updates, every Chapter Approved, and a copy of the Beta rules if you are using those. You'd need a carrying case just for the rules. That is obscene. Battle scribe, while imperfect, is a damn sight better than the greedy book scheme that GW has going. Seriously, the books alone are around 150 dollars 65 for the rule book, 45 for the codex, each chapter approved is 35 bucks. That's two Start Collecting boxes. And that cost is just going to get higher and higher the more updates come out.

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Koonitz
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Re: Computer designed army lists

Post by Koonitz » Tue Apr 24, 2018 2:24 pm

mrazek22 wrote:
Tue Apr 24, 2018 11:49 am
Well, here is the thing. With the sheer amount of errata that has been generated, and will be generated in the future, is it not fair to say: Bring you Codex, Rulebook, All FAQs, All updates, every Chapter Approved, and a copy of the Beta rules if you are using those. You'd need a carrying case just for the rules. That is obscene. Battle scribe, while imperfect, is a damn sight better than the greedy book scheme that GW has going. Seriously, the books alone are around 150 dollars 65 for the rule book, 45 for the codex, each chapter approved is 35 bucks. That's two Start Collecting boxes. And that cost is just going to get higher and higher the more updates come out.
And if I ask you to prove a rule and you don't have your book on you? Do you really think battlescribe is a suitable alternative to the official rules?

When I'm just beer-and-pretzeling with friends, sure. It helped at least one of my friends learn of something he can do out of a rulebook he never bought (one of the Chaos alternate books from 7th edition). However, in a pick-up game, with someone I don't necessarily trust, especially in a Matched Play/competitive play scenario, absolutely not, as I said. Nor, I do recall, do tournament organizers, as they should require you to have the official rules available for your army and all models/units used.

The FAQ/Update/points changes and what not are easy. I have sticky notes in my codex to remind me of the FAQ changes. Then, a digital copy of the FAQ, itself, is fine. Pull it up on my phone if I have to, or print it out and slap it into a duo-tang (which can hold every FAQ for your army and in general). A token amount of effort to solve that problem. If you are serious about playing your army (and anyone who plays competitively should), you'll be up-to-date on your army and its FAQs. That shouldn't be a problem. WarHammer Community does pretty well to keep me up to date.

Worse case scenario, if you really don't like books, every book is available in digital format, so if you really want, replace all books with a single phone or tablet. Me, I like my books.
Last edited by Koonitz on Tue Apr 24, 2018 2:34 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Armies:
40k: Knights Cynosure Iron Hands successor chapter, House Terryn Questor Imperialis, Thousand Sons/Tzeentch Daemons
30k: Thousand Sons
Age of Sigmar: Sylvaneth, Disciples of Tzeentch

Ronin
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Re: Computer designed army lists

Post by Ronin » Tue Apr 24, 2018 2:30 pm

Team ebook ftw!

mrazek22
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Re: Computer designed army lists

Post by mrazek22 » Tue Apr 24, 2018 2:51 pm

It's not MY personal problem, but it always comes back to attracting new players. I personally love the game, but unfortunately not everyone is a well established adult with disposable income, enough to justify the 400-500 it will cost to buy and paint a basic (2000p) army, the 150 in books, and the assorted costs involved in actually getting that army to and from matches. Paint, tools, carrying cases, glue, replacement models, extra models for variance? We just casually toss out the idea that it's impossible to come up with around a thousand dollars, just to start do the hobby.

Sure, it's easy to DO the hobby, but it's not easy to get into. And that is the specific reason this remains such a niche hobby. It's an extremely daunting task, looking at the mountain of work and money that is required prior to being able to even enjoy the hobby.

I'm not saying you do this, but we as a community shouldn't attack those who don't have the money to buy all the things GW forces us to. GW makes it incredibly difficult to get started in this hobby, and we should reward them for showing up. Hell, email them a PDF copy of the Ebook and let them print it out. It doesn't cost you anything.

Final note - the GW "Battlescribe" will be monetized, and it will again limit the ability of new players to enjoy the game.

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Koonitz
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Re: Computer designed army lists

Post by Koonitz » Tue Apr 24, 2018 3:03 pm

mrazek22 wrote:
Tue Apr 24, 2018 2:51 pm
It's not MY personal problem, but it always comes back to attracting new players. I personally love the game, but unfortunately not everyone is a well established adult with disposable income, enough to justify the 400-500 it will cost to buy and paint a basic (2000p) army, the 150 in books, and the assorted costs involved in actually getting that army to and from matches. Paint, tools, carrying cases, glue, replacement models, extra models for variance? We just casually toss out the idea that it's impossible to come up with around a thousand dollars, just to start do the hobby.

Sure, it's easy to DO the hobby, but it's not easy to get into. And that is the specific reason this remains such a niche hobby. It's an extremely daunting task, looking at the mountain of work and money that is required prior to being able to even enjoy the hobby.

I'm not saying you do this, but we as a community shouldn't attack those who don't have the money to buy all the things GW forces us to. GW makes it incredibly difficult to get started in this hobby, and we should reward them for showing up. Hell, email them a PDF copy of the Ebook and let them print it out. It doesn't cost you anything.

Final note - the GW "Battlescribe" will be monetized, and it will again limit the ability of new players to enjoy the game.
You have a valid point, though I just went through a good example of this with a friend of mine (whose game I played with him I posted in the "How did your last game go" post).

He's your model example. Right now, book wise, he has the rulebook, and he has his Index (Space Wolves). We played a 1,500 point game, which was his first matched play game (he played a couple games as part of my narrative campaign where we used power points). I helped him build his list, using my Chapter Approved book (he penciled in the points changes into his index). He had 4 models painted, at least half his army proxied, and his Stormfang was literally just the base pulled out of the box because he both didn't have the time to build it, and is super-intimidated at the idea of building it just yet without help.

New players who are not just new to the game, but also new to modeling do need a certain degree of hand-holding. Going in blind, without a friend (a store employee isn't always the best, because they aren't always around like a friend can be), is indimidating.

However, I'd argue if these players are getting berated for not having the Chapter Approved book, not knowing the latest changes in the FAQ, not following the beta rules to the letter, then I wouldn't blame the new player OR Games Workshop for them leaving the hobby.
Armies:
40k: Knights Cynosure Iron Hands successor chapter, House Terryn Questor Imperialis, Thousand Sons/Tzeentch Daemons
30k: Thousand Sons
Age of Sigmar: Sylvaneth, Disciples of Tzeentch

mrazek22
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Re: Computer designed army lists

Post by mrazek22 » Tue Apr 24, 2018 3:24 pm

Koonitz,

You are right. I remember how much literal fear my friend had/still has when I introduced him to his new army, CSMs. He was so scared of going to the store, because the store experience ended badly. The store wanted him to buy the 35 dollar snips, the 20 dollar dice, the 15 dollar tape measure, and on top of the books and start collecting box. Way over the 150 he planned. The store owner literally told him that he should use the GW equipment, because some tournaments won't let him play with non-store stuff. He got really upset and left.

It's part of how we introduce new players, and I really wish people kept away from the stores, at first. They are really pushy and commission oriented, that it's easy to get sucked into the wrong thing. My first time had me walking out with 75$ in Grey Knights. We all know how that ended.

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Re: Computer designed army lists

Post by noograss » Thu Apr 26, 2018 8:29 am

yeah i always bring my codex with me, even if i have the list on battelscribe for sure :)

There are indeed some inconsistency from time to time

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