Going back to 7th Edition Deployment?

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Ronin
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Going back to 7th Edition Deployment?

Post by Ronin » Tue Apr 17, 2018 11:55 am

So with the release of the FAQ, a lot of people are concerned that the changes to reserve and deep strike rules will empower gunlines. I was thinking what if folks house ruled the deployment method back to 7th, but with an 8th edition twist where the player with less units have +1 to their roll off and the player going second gets to choose deployment zone and style. Hypothetically, this would speed up the set up portion of the game as well as make it strategic to go second because you can counter deploy in cover and behind line of sight blocking terrain as well as choose deployment style. If a gunline chooses to go second, this nerfs their alpha strike because they could get maimed by their opponent on turn 1. Thoughts on pros and cons? I think the main con in 7th was going second made it way too easy for deep strike heavy armies, but with 50% of your points having to start on the table, this might address that too.
SET PIECE DEPLOYMENT RULES (BETA)

Use these rules if you would prefer an alternate method to the standard mission set up.

1) Set up terrain in a fashion both you and your opponent would agree to and roll for mission. You can do this in reverse order, if desired.
2) Alternate between you and your opponent to place objectives down.
3) Roll off for first turn. The player with less units in their army gets +1 to the roll.
4) Player who wins the roll off may choose to go first or second. The player designated as going second chooses the deployment style and zone.
5) The player who goes first deploys their entire army in their deployment zone or declares which units will be coming in from reinforcements.
6) The player who goes second deploys their entire army in their deployment zone or declares which units will be coming in from reinforcements.
7) The player going second may attempt to seize the initiative if they did not choose to voluntarily go second
8) Begin the battle!

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Re: Going back to 7th Edition Deployment?

Post by Mach-Ten » Tue Apr 17, 2018 3:35 pm

never backwards ... always forwards!¬

look, deep strike isn't the main issue and I don't get why GW keep battering the close combat armies ... it's the shooters that are the issue

DS into rapid fire range AND charge is too much.

First turn should be Night fighting (-1 to shoot) Deepstrike should be -1 to hit for disorientation .. etc.

would fix a LOT I think.

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Re: Going back to 7th Edition Deployment?

Post by Ronin » Wed Apr 18, 2018 11:03 am

I think the original issue with DS wasn't so much the melee oriented ones, but the shooty ones. You could null deploy a huge majority of your army and leave a token force behind cover and then drop down and shoot the bejeezus out of your opponent. Also, the 7th deployment rules actually do exist in 8th in the Open War cards. I think it's the Set Piece Battle twist card.

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Re: Going back to 7th Edition Deployment?

Post by mrazek22 » Wed Apr 18, 2018 11:42 am

The problem is if you muck with DS rules, you are invalidating entire races/factions gimmick. Scions, for one, are best used as a DS force. Start mucking that up and they quickly become invalid. Same with Summoned units. The point is, you have to protect your back field, or risk getting DSed and shot up because you focused too much on the mid-upper field. Happens too often, and players need to learn. I don't think altering the DS rules is making the game better, its just to help players get into CC and worry less about getting DSed. Just my 2c.

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Re: Going back to 7th Edition Deployment?

Post by Ronin » Wed Apr 18, 2018 12:06 pm

Turn 1 deep strike was only a thing this edition. Last edition you couldn't bring anything on the table until turn 2 and that was a randomized roll on a 3+. Editions before that had it start on a 4+ roll and tick down to 3+ and so on. Not to mention you had scatter dice and the risk of the unit either not coming on the table, dying, or being put in the corner. I feel like if your army is not adaptable to deep striking turn 2, it's sort of your own fault for not building a more sustainable list. It's like if your only strategy is a Protoss Cannon rush in Starcraft. Obviously, it's GW's intent for players to not build an entire army on deep striking this edition.

The new rules definitely sucks for my Grey Knights, but they're in a trash pile as a solo army right now so I'm not really miffed. They're meant to be more of an auxillary force than a standalone army anyways. Same with Scions, in my opinion.

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Re: Going back to 7th Edition Deployment?

Post by mrazek22 » Wed Apr 18, 2018 2:41 pm

Right! Awesome points. But at least have some form of disclaimer on the boxes! "SCIONS NOT MEANT TO BE BASE FOR ARMY!" or "GREY KNIGHTS WHILE LORE-AWESOME, SUCK IN GAME AND SHOULD NOT BE PURCHASED BY INTELLIGENT PLAYERS."

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Re: Going back to 7th Edition Deployment?

Post by Ronin » Wed Apr 18, 2018 2:44 pm

It's why I don't sell any of my models so I just collect and rotate around when the meta shifts, lol. Sucks more for the new folks starting out and don't have a decade old collection.

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Re: Going back to 7th Edition Deployment?

Post by Signet-Powers » Thu Apr 19, 2018 4:46 am

Is it time for the Aegis Defence Line to make its comeback? For such a cheap price its a very forgiving cover save. Would be helpful for deepstrike heavy armies to survive first turn, no?

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Re: Going back to 7th Edition Deployment?

Post by mrazek22 » Thu Apr 19, 2018 8:02 am

I'm actually confused on this. Is this a terrain, or can you "field" this as part of your army?

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Re: Going back to 7th Edition Deployment?

Post by Signet-Powers » Thu Apr 19, 2018 8:28 am

It's treated as a terrain piece that any faction can field as part of their army, and unlike other fortifications cannot be destroyed. Once it's deployed though either player can use it but it can't move.

Essentially you set up a wall in your deployment zone. Any infantry unit within 1" of it and on the opposite side to the opponent (note: doesn't have to be half hidden like normal cover, just behind the wall) gets a cover save. So Scions become 3+. Guardsmen become 4+. Add take cover on top of that and you got some pretty survivable units.

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Re: Going back to 7th Edition Deployment?

Post by mrazek22 » Thu Apr 19, 2018 8:33 am

I just looked up the costs, and they are massive. Add to that all the weapons are 5+ and they can't take any sort of buffs, I would just take the free ruins/buildings/trees.

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Re: Going back to 7th Edition Deployment?

Post by Signet-Powers » Thu Apr 19, 2018 8:33 am

It's less than 80pts

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Re: Going back to 7th Edition Deployment?

Post by mrazek22 » Thu Apr 19, 2018 8:44 am

It's 80 points, with the 5+ weapon it's 140ish. That's basically an immobile Russ that can't hit anything on the ground (-1 modifier to ground targets). I'd rather add a Russ.

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Re: Going back to 7th Edition Deployment?

Post by Signet-Powers » Thu Apr 19, 2018 9:03 am

The weapons garbage, don't ever bring it, but the wall still has a lot of value. It's makes your infantry in your deployment zone much more survivable, especially if your scions. Just what sort of damage they'll be taking first turn if they can't deepstrike.

I mean, you spend 1CP on take cover and you have a squad of ten scions behind that Aegis gain a 2+ Armor save.

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Re: Going back to 7th Edition Deployment?

Post by mrazek22 » Thu Apr 19, 2018 9:49 am

I see your point. It's a possibility. I would have to change the narrative of my Scion det. They aren't really made for taking cover, or holding a line? I dunno. Scions are pretty short ranged as is, I mean they are within charge range at their max range. What would interest me if you could place them 2" behind the fortification, and still get the bonus, but essentially be immune to charge? Would that work? Or do the models have to physically by standing on the terrain to get the "cover" bonus.

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