Points Limit in Tournaments

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mrazek22
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Points Limit in Tournaments

Post by mrazek22 » Wed Mar 28, 2018 8:25 am

So, with time limits being critiqued in the recent tournaments; (slow play tactics, re-rolls, opponents taking too many rule reviews, rule challenges, etc) does anyone have anything against lowering the point limits? Since the inception it seems (modest review of point costs going back to 4th) that point costs have gone consistently down, to allow more models in play. However, the limit in events has always remained at 2k, 5k, and 10k.

What if they limited point totals to 750, 1k, and 1.5k? Sure this would extremely limit some armies to just a few models, but anyone bringing super heavies or knight squadrons can have their own 2k bracket. This would at least allow experienced players to focus their efforts on more precise strategies.

What do you all think? Having only played in one tournament, and watched one, I can't speak from experience. But I can speak from experiencing just normal games of 1k or more taking upwards of 2-3 hours, especially with rule checks, re-rolls of shots, wounds, moral, psychic phase re-rolls, saves, etc. Re-rolls alone take up more time then actually anything else.

Thoughts? Change re-roll rules? Lower Point total? Punish slow play by melting models?

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Re: Points Limit in Tournaments

Post by Bojazz » Wed Mar 28, 2018 12:10 pm

I don't think lowering the points value is the way to go. The reason points have been steadily decreasing is because more combos have been popping up through the editions, and the game has been growing more towards having a spread of units rather than spamming a single unit (generally. There are always exceptions of course). For example formations started rewarding players with bonus rules for taking certain models in detachments, and so armies tried to consist of a lot of different units to fill out as many formations as possible, and the lower points costs assisted in doing so.

I feel like lowering points limits on games for standard tournaments would just make for less interesting games overall. Brigade detachments would be nearly impossible for most armies, characters would take more of your army's points since they're usually pretty expensive, leaving less models on the table for them to affect and there making them less useful for comparatively more percentage of your army in points.

I feel a more elegant solution is time limits on player turns rather than on games as a whole. This completely negates slow play as well as forces the players to learn their army. Time clocks can stop while rules disputes are settled by judges and therefore looking up rules would have no effect on how much time any player has to play their turns. Players would have to build their lists with their time limits in mind to ensure they don't handicap themselves. This would also force players to make quicker decisions rather than contemplating strategy midst battle. This would put an interesting twist on games as a player's decision making skills would undoubtedly be affected and so players would be rewarded for their ability to make good decisions quickly, while other players may make a costly poor decision too quickly - just like in warfare.

Perhaps a half hour per player turn? This would allow for a minimum of 3 turns in a 3 hour game, and most tournament games are decided by turn 2 or 3 anyways.
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Re: Points Limit in Tournaments

Post by Koonitz » Wed Mar 28, 2018 12:22 pm

Bojazz wrote:
Wed Mar 28, 2018 12:10 pm

Perhaps a half hour per player turn? This would allow for a minimum of 3 turns in a 3 hour game, and most tournament games are decided by turn 2 or 3 anyways.
Personally, I prefer dividing the total round's time limit evenly among both players. Thus, if the whole round is 3 hours, each player gets 1.5 hours. Thus, a horde player could take longer in the first turn, but as attrition tears their army apart, they can make quicker final rounds, thus balancing it out. Whereas a tough army that loses little, round per round, can spread their time more evenly.
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Re: Points Limit in Tournaments

Post by Bojazz » Wed Mar 28, 2018 12:56 pm

Ooh, I like that. That has the same overall effect I was going for, but is more fair to players with different model counts. Good idea, koonitz!
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Re: Points Limit in Tournaments

Post by mrazek22 » Wed Mar 28, 2018 1:19 pm

Only issue being with time limits is the exact opposite of the objection to the points argument. You are effectively penalizing large (many unit) armies such as guard, Nids, orks, maybe tau and eldar. Instead you are forcing the large army player to do lots of rolls extremely quickly, do all the prep, while a (for example) Custodian player gets to do comparatively less work, with more time, and stronger units.

What if we got rid of Re-roll 1s on EVERYTHING? That's a huge chunk of time right there? Another idea is rewarding fast play. If you complete your turn in under X time, get a command point, etc.

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Re: Points Limit in Tournaments

Post by Ronin » Wed Mar 28, 2018 2:04 pm

I'm ok with using time as a method to penalize horde armies because of how strong they are this edition against more elite armies. Building an army to strategically be playable under a time limit should be another factor that's encouraged. Also if you play in a tournament, it's expected that you've memorized the rules for your army so look up should be kept to a minimum unless your opponent needs clarification. However, the problem with slow play isn't the army sizes, but the fact that people will use it as a strategy and it's hard for both players and refs to detect. An example of what slow players will do is pretend to not know rules and repeatedly ask for rule questions checked for things basic like "Can jetbikes move over terrain". I'm also pro chess clock.

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Re: Points Limit in Tournaments

Post by mrazek22 » Wed Mar 28, 2018 3:45 pm

What do you consider a fair punishment?

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Re: Points Limit in Tournaments

Post by Signet-Powers » Wed Mar 28, 2018 4:52 pm

mrazek22 wrote:
Wed Mar 28, 2018 1:19 pm
Only issue being with time limits is the exact opposite of the objection to the points argument. You are effectively penalizing large (many unit) armies such as guard, Nids, orks, maybe tau and eldar. Instead you are forcing the large army player to do lots of rolls extremely quickly, do all the prep, while a (for example) Custodian player gets to do comparatively less work, with more time, and stronger units.
I agree, but then consider that there are players who take 150+ Guardsmen models in their lists now. There really needs to be some sort of limit to that. A definitive points or unit rule would be tricky to come up with, whereas a time limit would force players to take into account the practicality of moving units around and things like that.

Little tangent here but consider 17-18th century warfare. One of the reasons (amongst many but bear with me here) that musket armies stood in lines was because ordering that many men around was difficult. Standing in formation, while not very safe for the soldiers, made it easier for the commanders to order them around and perform complex strategies in a speedy way.

Similarly a time limit would force horde players to make sure they build their list in a less spammy and more practical way. It would add another level of complexity and urgency to a horde list, other than just spamming the most efficient numbers on the tabletop.

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Re: Points Limit in Tournaments

Post by mrazek22 » Wed Mar 28, 2018 6:11 pm

I would gladly accept a limit on the troop count for matches, if only those troops weren't worthless as anything unless massed. Right now they are meat shields. Let them be meat shields. You can't make the conscript any weaker, literally. And removing them is out. But I would love to see them capped at something realistic, say 10-15? Same with ork boys, Nids, and self-spawning units like Horrors and Poxies.

I think guard squads and Tempestor squads are fine...I mean you could nerf them, but I dunno. I think a model count limit is a good idea.

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Re: Points Limit in Tournaments

Post by Bojazz » Wed Mar 28, 2018 8:50 pm

Just as a frame of reference regarding the time limits per turn or per player ~ I play an Ulthwe Guardian spam Craftworlds list with around 100 models. I Have them all on the table during the first turn, I utilize the psychic phase quite a lot, and I have assault units as well (Storm Guardians, Avatar, Autarch beatstick). I can complete my first turn in a half hour fairly easily - and that's with rules references since I still don't know everything by heart.

So I feel like a half hour time limit per turn - or a 1.5 hour time limit overall per player for each game still works just fine for horde armies - especially since casualties throughout the game will make later turns go faster.
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Re: Points Limit in Tournaments

Post by Jeffers » Sat Mar 31, 2018 8:35 am

If you lower points too much then u run the risk of a lucky dice roll ruining the game as pointed out earlier the model count is alot lower.

Losing one unit in a 750 pt game is quite detrimental.

I always prefer 2000-2500 as % wise losing one unit is not a kick in the teeth and you are not punished for it

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Re: Points Limit in Tournaments

Post by mrazek22 » Mon Apr 02, 2018 8:00 am

I'm sorry, but " Losing a unit" is not a valid argument. The whole game is to fight units, some get lost. If you can't deal with losing that unit, your strategy isn't sound. I will accept that units are more valuable in 750, but maybe those styles of matches are sprints, instead of the 3 hour marathon that is 2k.

Here is a interesting idea I heard at a match this weekend. Eliminate the entire setup "phase". Put all models either in play, or reserve, as it suits you, and roll a 20 sider for first turn. Set the deployment zones far enough apart that outside of artillery, setup is not affected by your enemy's setup. In major matches, have pre-setup objective points, and deployment zones. All you have is the time of setting up your deployment zone. Then roll off for first. Fair, equitable, and prevents the waste of time that is individual unit placement.

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Re: Points Limit in Tournaments

Post by Ronin » Mon Apr 02, 2018 12:52 pm

His point is more points give you more redundancies and is less punishing to lose a single unit.

Back in 7th edition, each player set up all their units before the other. The player who set up first went first, but the player who went second had the advantage of being able to counter deploy and ambush reserved units with their own. It was a lot faster and I think gave better incentives to go second.

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