8th Edition - Pile in

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mrazek22
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8th Edition - Pile in

Post by mrazek22 » Mon Mar 19, 2018 3:42 pm

What is the most current interpretation of pile in rules, as it pertains to a "second movement" after charges? If my squad gets charged, and they are spread out, the rules say within 1" of the unit. Does that mean the furthest away squad member is viable for the 1" rule? Or does it mean 1" to the nearest possible model in that unit?

My bullgryns got charged last night, an all 6 were spread out in a line.

0--0--0--0--0--0

The charge came for the left most guy, because that is what my opponent measured off. He succeeded. So this was the result.

0--0--0--0--0--0 <XXXXX> "Squad of possessed"

He then piled in, like this.

<0--0--0--0xx--0x--0x--0x

I called foul, because he moved farther than an inch from the spot of the charged target model. He said he can pile in on the UNIT, not the model. Thing was this pile in allowed him to tie up two other units in the area, which really hurt. I am really confused as to how he gets 3 movement phases. Move, charge, pile in.

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Re: 8th Edition - Pile in

Post by Rouven » Mon Mar 19, 2018 4:02 pm

Hi!

Matt explains the pile-in rule in this video: https://www.miniwargaming.com/content/A ... ition-Ep-9
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Re: 8th Edition - Pile in

Post by Raschier » Mon Mar 19, 2018 4:25 pm

I think he is allowed to pile in for the unit, but since he sidn't charge those other two units, he has to remain more than 1" away from them. So while he is allowed to pile in for the unit, he wasn't allowed to tie up those other two units.

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Re: 8th Edition - Pile in

Post by mrazek22 » Mon Mar 19, 2018 4:32 pm

He didn't charge the units. But any unit within an inch of an enemy unit is considered in Melee combat, thus has to fall back or not shoot. So my question remains. The movement of the charging unit is 1" from the point of the charge at the END of the charge phase? Or is it 1 inch for the unit charged in it's entirety? The video isn't clear. If my squad is three guys is it allowed to "pile in" to the REAR of a entire 20 model squad of boys? Effectively getting a 12-18" move off the pile in phase? That is ridiculous.

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Re: 8th Edition - Pile in

Post by Koonitz » Mon Mar 19, 2018 4:42 pm

Raschier wrote:
Mon Mar 19, 2018 4:25 pm
I think he is allowed to pile in for the unit, but since he sidn't charge those other two units, he has to remain more than 1" away from them. So while he is allowed to pile in for the unit, he wasn't allowed to tie up those other two units.
That is incorrect.

1) When making the CHARGE move, he must remain outside 1" of all enemy models he did not declare a charge on (ie: If he didn't get to overwatch you, you don't get to move in base contact with him at this step). Edit: to add, the charge move does not require you to end closer to the nearest enemy model. Thus, the charge move may allow you to move into the middle of an enemy unit, around it, or over it, if you have fly.

2) When making a pile-in/consolidation move, no such restriction applies. Only that you must end the 3" move closer to the nearest enemy model than when you started, which can prevent you from angling towards other enemy units. But a clever opponent can still easily do so (or especially do so, if they wipe out the unit they charged, then consolidate directly towards a nearby enemy unit).

3) The only other restriction is that when you charge, you cannot declare any ATTACKS upon any unit you did not declare as a charge target. So you can pile into another enemy unit and pull it into combat, but you cannot attack that unit (but it can attack you because it didn't charge this turn.

This is the very dangerous problem of keeping your units close together, or castling (as compared to previous editions making them susceptible to blast weapons). Pile-ins and consolidations can lock up units that otherwise did not get to overwatch because they were not the targets of the charge. Doubly so with Hormagaunts, whom may pile-in/consolidate up to 6", allowing them to threaten entire gun-lines with a well-placed charge.

I have not watched the video (I'm at work), but if I recall it, it's a very worthwhile watch.
mrazek22 wrote:
Mon Mar 19, 2018 4:32 pm
He didn't charge the units. But any unit within an inch of an enemy unit is considered in Melee combat, thus has to fall back or not shoot. So my question remains. The movement of the charging unit is 1" from the point of the charge at the END of the charge phase? Or is it 1 inch for the unit charged in it's entirety? The video isn't clear. If my squad is three guys is it allowed to "pile in" to the REAR of a entire 20 model squad of boys? Effectively getting a 12-18" move off the pile in phase? That is ridiculous.
As I mentioned above, if you did not declare a unit as a target of your charge, your CHARGE MOVE may not bring the unit within 1" of the enemy. However, when you pile-in or consolidate (each such move is a 3" move, which must end the move closer to the NEAREST enemy MODEL), you may end within 1" of another enemy unit that you did not charge.

As such, in your example, if the enemy unit charged your bullgryn from the side and let's say the ended exactly as you depicted (in a straight line away from the 'left-most' bullgryn (rightmost in the text representation). That would be considered the charge move. So long as their 2d6 charge roll was enough to allow them to reach that point in that fashion, it is 100% legal. However, that move would not allow them to get within 1" of ANOTHER of your units, unless that other unit was also declared a target of the charge (and thus, would be able to overwatch).

Once the charge is done, and the ENTIRE CHARGE PHASE IS OVER, the fight phase begins. If the possessed unit was chosen to attack at this point, they could then make a 3" pile-in move. This move CAN bring them within 1" of another enemy unit. However, each individual model must move in such a fashion as to end the move closer to the nearest enemy model. In the case of the possessed closest to the bullgryns, that would, obviously, be the SINGULAR BULLGRYN on the left of your unit. The possessed CANNOT bypass that bullgryn and engage other Bullgryn in the unit, unless the move it takes is ended closer to the bullgryn that was NEAREST it at the start of the move. In essence, they'd be able to move in and surround the nearest bullgryn, but would not be able to spread out into the unit.

It is also worth mentioning that, since the possessed ended their CHARGE move in, effectively, a straight line, it is possible that some of the models will be nearer to enemy models in other units, than with the bullgryn. This means that they would have to pile in towards THOSE models, even if they were not targets of the charge.

NOTE AS WELL THAT IF YOU ARE IN BASE CONTACT WITH AN ENEMY MODEL, IT IS NOT POSSIBLE TO MOVE IN ANY WAY TO END THAT MOVE CLOSER TO THAT ENEMY MODEL. AS SUCH, A MODEL IN BASE CONTACT MAY NOT MAKE A PILE-IN MOVE!

This situation is very difficult to describe over text, and I apologize that it seems convoluted. It can be, in certain circumstances, but for the most part, it's fairly straight forward. If I were at home, I'd take some pictures depicting the situation in a better light (I'd have fun with it, to be honest). If there's still any problems when I get home, I'll do just that.
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Re: 8th Edition - Pile in

Post by mrazek22 » Mon Mar 19, 2018 4:57 pm

Thank you Koonitz! You answered 90% of my questions. So, after the Charge phase, the charging unit models are allowed to move 3" inches closer around the charged unit, called the pile in. Got it. Is the 3" move closer to the nearest MODEL, or any model in the UNIT?

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Re: 8th Edition - Pile in

Post by Koonitz » Mon Mar 19, 2018 5:03 pm

mrazek22 wrote:
Mon Mar 19, 2018 4:57 pm
Thank you Koonitz! You answered 90% of my questions. So, after the Charge phase, the charging unit models are allowed to move 3" inches closer around the charged unit, called the pile in. Got it. Is the 3" move closer to the nearest MODEL, or any model in the UNIT?
The pile-in move is done when you choose a unit to activate in the fight phase. The consolidation move is done when you finish activating that unit.

The move is also towards the nearest MODEL. This is determined on a model-per-model basis. In other words, each time you do a pile-in or consolidation move, each model you move determines the closest enemy model to itself, not to the unit it belongs to or the unit it has charged.

As well, the pile-in/consolidation move is 100% voluntary on a model-per-model basis. If you feel one or more of your models would have to move in such a way as to be unfavourable, you may choose NOT to move that model at all.
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