Sword or Axe? How clear should you be when it comes to hybrid looking weapons? (disclaimer, long read)

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Re: Sword or Axe? How clear should you be when it comes to hybrid looking weapons? (disclaimer, long read)

Post by Salamand3rs4Lyfe » Wed Mar 14, 2018 3:20 pm

I would say it is a judgement call based upon how you feel the appearance of the the killing implement matches that of a sword or axe. If you feel it looks enough like an axe to use the axe rules then i don't think most people will be opposed if you give them a reasonable and brief justification for why you feel that way and of course as long as you are consistent with your judgement
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Re: Sword or Axe? How clear should you be when it comes to hybrid looking weapons? (disclaimer, long read)

Post by mrazek22 » Tue Mar 20, 2018 1:15 pm

The thing the model is holding is not always what is being used for attacking. Look at the Tempestor Prime model. That little dagger it's holding is actually a Chainsword!

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Re: Sword or Axe? How clear should you be when it comes to hybrid looking weapons? (disclaimer, long read)

Post by Signet-Powers » Tue Mar 20, 2018 3:47 pm

mrazek22 wrote:
Tue Mar 20, 2018 1:15 pm
The thing the model is holding is not always what is being used for attacking. Look at the Tempestor Prime model. That little dagger it's holding is actually a Chainsword!
You sure about that?

Tempestor Prime:
"This model is armed with a hot-shot laspistol, frag grenades and krak grenades."
"This model may take a chainsword or..."

So if you don't take one he's justs using a normal close combat weapon.

Now, why a knife or bayonet or even a fist is somehow equal in attack power to a lasgun shot, which can blow limbs off is anyones guess...

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Re: Sword or Axe? How clear should you be when it comes to hybrid looking weapons? (disclaimer, long read)

Post by Koonitz » Tue Mar 20, 2018 5:02 pm

Signet-Powers wrote:
Tue Mar 20, 2018 3:47 pm
Now, why a knife or bayonet or even a fist is somehow equal in attack power to a lasgun shot, which can blow limbs off is anyones guess...
Have you seen a well-trained soldier with little but his own two fists and/or a knife? I'm more than ready to believe they're as deadly with that as they are with their gun of choice.
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Re: Sword or Axe? How clear should you be when it comes to hybrid looking weapons? (disclaimer, long read)

Post by Signet-Powers » Tue Mar 20, 2018 5:54 pm

Koonitz wrote:
Tue Mar 20, 2018 5:02 pm
Signet-Powers wrote:
Tue Mar 20, 2018 3:47 pm
Now, why a knife or bayonet or even a fist is somehow equal in attack power to a lasgun shot, which can blow limbs off is anyones guess...
Have you seen a well-trained soldier with little but his own two fists and/or a knife? I'm more than ready to believe they're as deadly with that as they are with their gun of choice.
Oh I don't doubt they're well trained and deadly with a knife but that's more of a weapon skill thing than a strength thing. You could kill someone by stabbing them in the head but it wouldn't blow their head apart like a lasgun shot.


N-n-not that I'm saying Guardsmen should be S2 though... (*laughs nervously and gulps*)

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Re: Sword or Axe? How clear should you be when it comes to hybrid looking weapons? (disclaimer, long read)

Post by Bojazz » Tue Mar 20, 2018 6:21 pm

The strength stat isn't literal. It's not the force behind an attack, it's an abstraction of something's ability to damage it's target. So skill with a knife would absolutely come into play.

Weapon and ballistic skill is their ability to hit the target at all, strength is their ability to hit something vital enough to be significant. They are not equal in "power" but rather have equal chances to hurt something.
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Re: Sword or Axe? How clear should you be when it comes to hybrid looking weapons? (disclaimer, long read)

Post by Signet-Powers » Tue Mar 20, 2018 6:35 pm

Wouldn't the ability to damage the target just be the Damage stat though?

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Re: Sword or Axe? How clear should you be when it comes to hybrid looking weapons? (disclaimer, long read)

Post by Bojazz » Tue Mar 20, 2018 6:59 pm

That would be how much damage something does after hitting something vital.

WS/BS = ability to hit at all. nicks, grazes, even knockback from a concussive blast would all count as hits.
Strength = ability to hit something vital. Direct hits, knives to an artery, important muscle, tendon, system, etc. That's why its called "rolling to wound" not "rolling to see how much you wound"
Damage = How much damage you've dealt after hitting something vital. A knife to the face would deal a single damage and kill most things, but a knife to the face that injects grenades into your target's innards would likely kill even a tyranid hive tyrant.

Consider something like the "Breach and Clear" Tau stratagem.
"Breacher Teams excel at clearing enemy-held structures with blinding photon grenades and disciplined bursts of pulse fire."
It allows breachers to re-roll to wound against enemy units in cover. Notice how it says nothing about increasing the strength of their weapons or using special ammunition, but rather just adept use of weapons they have. This shows that skill with weapons is considered when comparing the Strength stat of an attack to the toughness stat of the target.

Another example would be Kor'sarro Khan's "For the Khan!" ability which adds 1 to the strength of friendly WHITE SCARS units within 6" when they charge. It doesn't make their weapons stronger or enhance their muscles, it just inspires them to fight better beside their leader, and its represented by them being able to land their blows in more critical spots.
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Re: Sword or Axe? How clear should you be when it comes to hybrid looking weapons? (disclaimer, long read)

Post by mrazek22 » Wed Mar 21, 2018 9:58 am

The Strength/WS thing always eludes me. So Harker (with strats) can punch you harder than my Taurox can ram you? My Bullgryn can hit you harder than the Frag bomb he's throwing at you. My GUARDSMAN CAN PUNCH JUST AS HARD AS HIS RIFLE.;..

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Re: Sword or Axe? How clear should you be when it comes to hybrid looking weapons? (disclaimer, long read)

Post by Signet-Powers » Wed Mar 21, 2018 8:50 pm

Bojazz wrote:
Tue Mar 20, 2018 6:59 pm
That would be how much damage something does after hitting something vital.

WS/BS = ability to hit at all. nicks, grazes, even knockback from a concussive blast would all count as hits.
Strength = ability to hit something vital. Direct hits, knives to an artery, important muscle, tendon, system, etc. That's why its called "rolling to wound" not "rolling to see how much you wound"
Damage = How much damage you've dealt after hitting something vital. A knife to the face would deal a single damage and kill most things, but a knife to the face that injects grenades into your target's innards would likely kill even a tyranid hive tyrant.

Consider something like the "Breach and Clear" Tau stratagem.
"Breacher Teams excel at clearing enemy-held structures with blinding photon grenades and disciplined bursts of pulse fire."
It allows breachers to re-roll to wound against enemy units in cover. Notice how it says nothing about increasing the strength of their weapons or using special ammunition, but rather just adept use of weapons they have. This shows that skill with weapons is considered when comparing the Strength stat of an attack to the toughness stat of the target.

Another example would be Kor'sarro Khan's "For the Khan!" ability which adds 1 to the strength of friendly WHITE SCARS units within 6" when they charge. It doesn't make their weapons stronger or enhance their muscles, it just inspires them to fight better beside their leader, and its represented by them being able to land their blows in more critical spots.
Okay, that's fair and makes sense. Though perhaps they could use a better term for it than strength? Not that it really matters anyway. This is all in good fun.
mrazek22 wrote:
Wed Mar 21, 2018 9:58 am
The Strength/WS thing always eludes me. So Harker (with strats) can punch you harder than my Taurox can ram you? My Bullgryn can hit you harder than the Frag bomb he's throwing at you. My GUARDSMAN CAN PUNCH JUST AS HARD AS HIS RIFLE.;..
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