Returning newbie player

In the future there is only war... Discuss the Warhammer 40K game right here...
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virakosen
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Returning newbie player

Post by virakosen » Fri Mar 02, 2018 8:25 pm

Hi everyone! Returning newbie here (I played one game with my friend's CSMs against his Necrons, lost horribly). What has all changed in the new edition? Currently interested in everything except Eldar, Dark Eldar, and Adeptus Mechanicus(Only models I could find is my Hive Tyrant, 3 Cadian Guardsmen, and my unpainted Librarian.)
Last edited by virakosen on Mon Mar 05, 2018 4:19 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Returning newbie player

Post by Koonitz » Fri Mar 02, 2018 8:55 pm

Welcome to the forums!

Unfortunately, that is a FAR to broad and general question. 8th has changed effectively everything from previous editions. Because of the sweeping changes, every single model has changed to some degree. All previous codices were made null, forcing everyone to buy new rules. As it stands, not every army has a new codex, yet. It's simply impossible for us to provide for you a list of things that have changed. Doubly so since you are interested in more than one army.

Your best bet would be to download the basic 8th Ed rules from GW's website, then watch a few 8th Edition batreps to get yourself up to speed. Then, when you're ready, go into the appropriate sub-forums here and either read up, or make some posts asking the questions you have about particular armies.
Armies:
40k: Knights Cynosure Iron Hands successor chapter, House Terryn Questor Imperialis, Thousand Sons/Tzeentch Daemons
30k: Thousand Sons
Age of Sigmar: Sylvaneth, Disciples of Tzeentch

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virakosen
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Re: Returning newbie player

Post by virakosen » Fri Mar 02, 2018 9:05 pm

Will do, thanks for telling me!
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Re: Returning newbie player

Post by Bojazz » Fri Mar 02, 2018 10:51 pm

Yes, as Koonitz said pretty much everything about the game has changed. The main thing you need to know about 8th edition is "Forget everything you learned in previous editions". While there are a few throwbacks to some rules of the older editions, it's far simpler to just consider 8th edition a brand new game entirely and learn from scratch with no assumptions from earlier iterations. On the bright side - 8th edition is FAR simpler to learn!
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Re: Returning newbie player

Post by mrazek22 » Mon Mar 05, 2018 11:03 am

SO: 40k is now a DOTA-esque Hero based strategy game, where the fluff is made up and the points don't matter!!!

Just kidding, sorta. Almost every race has a named hero type character that acts as a force multiplier for unit effectiveness. Everything from literal gods, to angels, to really strong humans who's chin gives everyone +1 to everything.

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Re: Returning newbie player

Post by Ronin » Mon Mar 05, 2018 12:09 pm

mrazek22 wrote:
Mon Mar 05, 2018 11:03 am
SO: 40k is now a DOTA-esque Hero based strategy game, where the fluff is made up and the points don't matter!!!

Just kidding, sorta. Almost every race has a named hero type character that acts as a force multiplier for unit effectiveness. Everything from literal gods, to angels, to really strong humans who's chin gives everyone +1 to everything.
That's nothing new, though. Named characters have always been stronger variants of vanilla characters for the longest time.

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Re: Returning newbie player

Post by Koonitz » Mon Mar 05, 2018 1:34 pm

Ronin wrote:
Mon Mar 05, 2018 12:09 pm
mrazek22 wrote:
Mon Mar 05, 2018 11:03 am
SO: 40k is now a DOTA-esque Hero based strategy game, where the fluff is made up and the points don't matter!!!

Just kidding, sorta. Almost every race has a named hero type character that acts as a force multiplier for unit effectiveness. Everything from literal gods, to angels, to really strong humans who's chin gives everyone +1 to everything.
That's nothing new, though. Named characters have always been stronger variants of vanilla characters for the longest time.
Not necessarily. For the longest time, many named characters were little more than their non-named counterparts with pre-selected wargear (and not even options not normally available). If you were lucky, they had one or two pieces of said pre-selected wargear that was unique or upgraded, but rarely, if ever, made up for being limited in wargear selection.

For instance, Shrike, from the Ravenguard. He used to just be a captain with jump pack and dual-lightning claws. Then he got unique lightining claws that were slightly better, but was still, otherwise, a captain with jump pack and lighting claws. If you were going for efficiency and competitiveness, you wouldn't take Shrike, quite simply because his wargear selection was sub-optimal.

Now he's a Chapter Master with some unique wargear. Which means that Ravenguard can take a Chapter Master without having to spend command points. A significant upgrade over "captain with jump pack and lightning claws".
Armies:
40k: Knights Cynosure Iron Hands successor chapter, House Terryn Questor Imperialis, Thousand Sons/Tzeentch Daemons
30k: Thousand Sons
Age of Sigmar: Sylvaneth, Disciples of Tzeentch

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Re: Returning newbie player

Post by Ronin » Mon Mar 05, 2018 1:38 pm

That upgrade was more to reflect the lore of him becoming a Chapter Master in the second Damocles war, though.

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Re: Returning newbie player

Post by Driedguide42 » Mon Mar 05, 2018 2:58 pm

Koonitz wrote:
Mon Mar 05, 2018 1:34 pm
Ronin wrote:
Mon Mar 05, 2018 12:09 pm
mrazek22 wrote:
Mon Mar 05, 2018 11:03 am
SO: 40k is now a DOTA-esque Hero based strategy game, where the fluff is made up and the points don't matter!!!

Just kidding, sorta. Almost every race has a named hero type character that acts as a force multiplier for unit effectiveness. Everything from literal gods, to angels, to really strong humans who's chin gives everyone +1 to everything.
That's nothing new, though. Named characters have always been stronger variants of vanilla characters for the longest time.
Not necessarily. For the longest time, many named characters were little more than their non-named counterparts with pre-selected wargear (and not even options not normally available). If you were lucky, they had one or two pieces of said pre-selected wargear that was unique or upgraded, but rarely, if ever, made up for being limited in wargear selection.

For instance, Shrike, from the Ravenguard. He used to just be a captain with jump pack and dual-lightning claws. Then he got unique lightining claws that were slightly better, but was still, otherwise, a captain with jump pack and lighting claws. If you were going for efficiency and competitiveness, you wouldn't take Shrike, quite simply because his wargear selection was sub-optimal.
Characters have given benefits beyond their gear before hand

In 6th and 7th Vulkan He'stan, Pedro Kantor and Kor'sarro Khan where able to give army wide benefits with giving all meltas master crafted, making Stern Guard scoring units and giving Bike/dedicated transports scout.
In 8th these where either Changed to be aura based or replaced with an aura based one
Shrike had an infiltrate ability that limited him to being only able to join jump infanty

The main change is that GW got rid of the Unique rules tied to one character in order to stream line the rule which unfortunately means the big faction Heads tend to get the best ones since they are directly comparable.
Koonitz wrote:
Mon Mar 05, 2018 1:34 pm
Now he's a Chapter Master with some unique wargear. Which means that Ravenguard can take a Chapter Master without having to spend command points. A significant upgrade over "captain with jump pack and lightning claws".
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- Ferrus Manus, Primarch of the Xth Legion Iron Hands.

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Re: Returning newbie player

Post by Koonitz » Mon Mar 05, 2018 3:39 pm

Very well. They did have some unique abilities, as well. Often relatively minor things. Things that added flavour, but did not necessarily make them significantly more powerful. Thus, they were, more often than not, taken for narrative purposes. Never because they were the most optimal choices.

Now, it is at the point where they are made objectively better, instead of tangentially or subjectively so. It's either you take the named character, or you gimp yourself. In a separate thread, I made the comparison between a Thousand Sons Exalted Sorcerer and Ahriman. Both are HQ choices in a Thousand Sons army. The differences are such that even if you aren't building a super-streamlined competitive list, you're a FOOL for not taking Ahriman over an Exalted Sorcerer.

I don't want to pretty much have to include Ahriman in every single one of my lists. That gets boring, and it does so at an incredibly rapid pace, especially if there is even one other Thousand Sons player in your meta (there are two others, here, and both include Magnus in every one of their games. If you wanted to know why I never mentioned him, there's your reason).

Driedguide42 wrote:
Mon Mar 05, 2018 2:58 pm
Koonitz wrote:
Mon Mar 05, 2018 1:34 pm
Now he's a Chapter Master with some unique wargear. Which means that Ravenguard can take a Chapter Master without having to spend command points. A significant upgrade over "captain with jump pack and lightning claws".
Grumbles in Iron Hand
Oh, I know that pain, but as a person who does not like using special characters, it never bothered me much. I tended to actually bring it up more tongue in cheek, or as a mark of pride that my Marine chapter is one with zero special characters.
Armies:
40k: Knights Cynosure Iron Hands successor chapter, House Terryn Questor Imperialis, Thousand Sons/Tzeentch Daemons
30k: Thousand Sons
Age of Sigmar: Sylvaneth, Disciples of Tzeentch

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Re: Returning newbie player

Post by mrazek22 » Mon Mar 05, 2018 3:48 pm

Ok, Girlyman gives army wide bonuses. It seems like every major named hero unit is practically required if your facing off against another Hero army. My hero-less guard army can't stand up against Mortarians, or Girlyman armies. Hell even the Doggie armies are getting a piece of the fluff stupidity. Because they didn't have enough.

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Re: Returning newbie player

Post by Ronin » Mon Mar 05, 2018 4:19 pm

To be fair and I'm just going off what I've seen you post here, but you do say you have trouble with a lot of armies regardless of whether or not they have a Primarch. I don't think it's a matter of army composition as it is just experience and we do see a disparity between the newer players and the veterans in my group. Honestly as a guard player and based on the data of how well they've been doing, you really shouldn't be having any issues fighting primarchs.

I agree the primarchs are the big gorilla of this and last edition, but I wouldn't say it's named characters in general that are the issue of 8th. Competitively, no one runs the guard named characters because company commanders and tank commanders are way more cost effective. No one runs named tau characters when it's better to take generic tau commanders that you can kit. No one runs the necron characters because the overlords and crpyteks offer about the same utility and they're cheaper. No one runs Raven Guard, Salamanders, White Scars, and Black Templars with their named characters because they rather take the versatility of a vanilla one. No one takes any of the eldar special characters when generic farseers get the job done. Point is there are plenty of folks who run vanilla characters and can make strong lists. For some factions like Thousand Sons, Admech, and Grey Knights it's absolutely true that their named characters are their best option, but it's more because of the lack of selection in unit choices.

I do believe that part of winning 40k is not just the list, but how you use them too. Going off of personal experience, I can tell a person who's only had 1 or 2 games under their belt to build a list with Guilliman and I'd probably table him with an army without any named characters because they don't have the experience to know how to use them effectively.

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Re: Returning newbie player

Post by virakosen » Mon Mar 05, 2018 7:02 pm

From getting caught up, I think I'll go with Chaos Space Marines or Orks. I'll probably decide which later (I'm looking for a mix shooty/melee army with good vehicles) and ask about my choice in their respective subforum.
Death Guard (Patrol Detachment in progress)
-Lord of Contagion (Assembled, awaiting primer)
-2 seven man squads of Plague Marines (Assembling)
-1 Myphitic Blight-Hauler (unassembled)

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Re: Returning newbie player

Post by Signet-Powers » Mon Mar 05, 2018 7:28 pm

virakosen wrote:
Mon Mar 05, 2018 7:02 pm
From getting caught up, I think I'll go with Chaos Space Marines or Orks. I'll probably decide which later (I'm looking for a mix shooty/melee army with good vehicles) and ask about my choice in their respective subforum.
Chaos Space Marines have some really nice new models (specifficaly the Death Guard and Thousand Sons) and are pretty decent codexes as I understand. The Orks should be getting a new one soon so it's up in the air how they're gonna turn out.

Also in regards to characters like Guilleman and Mortarian, they're like one or two models out of hundreds in the game, not everyone has them, and those that do probably won't always use them anyway. I wouldn't worry too much about them. Everything else is mostly fine/on the way to being mostly fine.

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Re: Returning newbie player

Post by Ronin » Mon Mar 05, 2018 7:52 pm

Yeah, what's most important is you get games in with folks who play similarly to your style whether it's beginner friendly, narrative, casual, or semi-competitive, or training for tournaments. Close games are the best games.

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