Most OP unit in the game?

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Re: Most OP unit in the game?

Post by Bojazz » Fri Sep 08, 2017 8:57 am

Bell of lost souls has an article about how Astra militarum fared at NOVA. Apparently they dominated all around, and the article claims that the non-guard player in the finals actually immediately conceded in as soon as he lost the ability to go first.

Of course, the article goes on to say that guard aren't the strongest army and everyone at nova that wasn't playing guard just didn't know how to play against the conscript blob, so take from it what you will.
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Re: Most OP unit in the game?

Post by xsquidz » Fri Sep 08, 2017 9:03 am

Reece (from frontline gaming) also played against one of the tougher AM guard lists in his first game and beat it.

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Re: Most OP unit in the game?

Post by Ronin » Fri Sep 08, 2017 9:07 am

Conscripts themselves aren't the problem. It's the fact that commisars break the morale mechanic by making them almost immune to checks. Summary execution should be a 1CP stratagem, in my opinion. Alternatively, you could bring back the requirements of platoons.

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Re: Most OP unit in the game?

Post by xsquidz » Fri Sep 08, 2017 9:32 am

Ronin wrote:
Fri Sep 08, 2017 9:07 am
Conscripts themselves aren't the problem. It's the fact that commisars break the morale mechanic by making them almost immune to checks. Summary execution should be a 1CP stratagem, in my opinion. Alternatively, you could bring back the requirements of platoons.
I also think you should not be able to do orders on conscripts either! Being able to fire 4 times, even as BS 5+ is scary. 50 of them get 200 shots. Or you can fall back and still shoot with an order.

I play guard, I love guard (not as much as my nids) but I think orders should work on conscripts-they don't have the training yet.
Last edited by xsquidz on Fri Sep 08, 2017 2:54 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Most OP unit in the game?

Post by Signet-Powers » Fri Sep 08, 2017 11:13 am

Guard are definetly way too powerful this edition. Specifically i blame the issues on three things:

- Unecesarily underpriced units and weapons. Guardsmen did not need a points drop and plasmaguns should be double their cost.

- The new rend system has made all anti-infantry weapons in the game incredibly weak. A buffed anti-horde unitwill struggle to kill 20 conscripts, let alone over 100 of them

- Characters are too hard to kill and their buffs too easy to benefir from thanks to all of them having areas of effects.

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Re: Most OP unit in the game?

Post by Ronin » Sat Sep 09, 2017 12:15 pm

Having just fought Magnus in a tournament list, I think he could be toned down just a tad. That guy should get either ++3 or reroll of 1s. NOT both without a points increase.

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Re: Most OP unit in the game?

Post by Bojazz » Sat Sep 09, 2017 8:01 pm

I think that's about par for the centrepiece models. GW seems to be trying to make them all nigh un-killable to make them seem like they truly are the most powerful beings in the universe. bobby G, celestine, Magnus, and Mortarion are all pretty beefy.
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Re: Most OP unit in the game?

Post by Kovlovsky » Mon Sep 11, 2017 12:58 am

Bojazz wrote:
Thu Sep 07, 2017 3:01 pm
If power creep is a thing in 8th that might mean nids and csm get shafted again with an early dex :/
Yep and that's why I wasn't overly enthusiastic about it. However, note that they announced that they would release about 10 codices before the end of the year. That means that a whole bunch of them were already ready to be printed or nearly ready. So, the order of release is possibly not as relevant as it was in pass editions where codices were released one at a time with little coordination and long periods of time in between. If some of them are subpar, they are already bad whenever they finally decide to release them.
Bojazz wrote:
Sat Sep 09, 2017 8:01 pm
I think that's about par for the centrepiece models. GW seems to be trying to make them all nigh un-killable to make them seem like they truly are the most powerful beings in the universe. bobby G, celestine, Magnus, and Mortarion are all pretty beefy.
Yes, it feels like they want to make the game more "heroic". I've never been a fan of that. I've always had a soft spot for the ordinary soldiers and much less for the heroes.

However, you should note that even if Magnus might be a close combat monster more than ever, his psychic abilities are also massively weaker, especially on the offensive side, more powerful Smite or not. He used to have two strength D powers including a Beam one AND could summon Tzeentch stuff at will including Burning Chariots, manifesting everything on 2+ rolls.
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Re: Most OP unit in the game?

Post by Ronin » Tue Sep 12, 2017 9:26 am

I don't really have an issue with his offense as much as I do with his defense, to be honest. In that game, double battle cannon and gatling cannon knights did a lot more hurt on my army. I went home and did a test and found it would have taken anywhere between 10-19 volleys of 4 lascannons to bring him down assuming he gets the ++3 off. On the other hand, Plasma spam might be the answer since you can oversaturate him rolls although that's out the window if I'm up against Nurgle and their ability to reduce damage lol. The struggle is real!

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Re: Most OP unit in the game?

Post by mmsolo » Tue Sep 12, 2017 3:14 pm

My Heroic version is just dreadnought. They stand out already realy nicely in the middle of infantry or tanks. No need for biger things. In the futur if they continue the scale will be totaly off.

About magnus remember also that he will be updated in the thousand sons codex. So might be power up to be like Mortarion .

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Re: Most OP unit in the game?

Post by Ronin » Wed Sep 13, 2017 2:00 pm

On another note, anyone think objective secured should be limited to only units with 10 models or less?

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Re: Most OP unit in the game?

Post by Koonitz » Wed Sep 13, 2017 2:39 pm

Ronin wrote:
Wed Sep 13, 2017 2:00 pm
On another note, anyone think objective secured should be limited to only units with 10 models or less?
Why? Why wouldn't a swarm of gants or a big squad of conscripts hold an objective? What it should be is that a single unit can only hold one objective at a time, no matter how spread out the unit is.
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Re: Most OP unit in the game?

Post by Ronin » Wed Sep 13, 2017 4:32 pm

It's more to balance things out between super elite armies like grey knights and primaris marines considering how playing horde is king this edition.

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Re: Most OP unit in the game?

Post by Koonitz » Wed Sep 13, 2017 6:12 pm

Ronin wrote:
Wed Sep 13, 2017 4:32 pm
It's more to balance things out between super elite armies like grey knights and primaris marines considering how playing horde is king this edition.
I just don't see it making sense, since that's exactly what horde infantry are good at. Holding objectives. While I think "can only hold one objective" will help, if you want additional tuning, perhaps reducing the cost of big things. Right now, it's not necessarily that hordes are too powerful, but hordes cannot be effectively dealt with by many armies that used to have several effective anti-horde tools, while singular large targets got hit pretty hard by the increased effectiveness of many anti-tank weapons against them (and the ease of acquiring them). This, admittedly, really hasn't changed much from 7th except for the increased effectiveness against monsters, as vehicles were routinely one-shotted by lascannons and alpha-strike meltas. Reducing points on the big things would make them more attractive by comparison to hordes.

Buffing a few anti-horde weapons might help, as well. For instance, the following are weapons that used to be incredibly effective against large horde armies but have been significantly reduced in overall effectiveness in 8th:

- Pretty much every template, blast, large blast, massive blast and apocalyptic blast weapon in the game. Seriously, I could stop here and that's all I'd have to say on the subject, but let me go on. If you had a 50-man conscript squad, any blast or large blast weapon (whether direct fire or artillery) would be laughing at the sheer inability to miss. A thunderfire cannon or other massed artillery would decimate squads of this type. Large blast would be effectively guaranteed 4-6 hits (not 1d6 shots that then have to roll to hit) against a squad that large. If you're foolish enough to bulk up, or had to for some other reason, double digit auto-hits was not difficult to get. While I appreciate the removal of the template and blast markers in an effort to speed up the game, these weapons SERIOUSLY need to be buffed. If they are, it would go a long way to nerfing horde dominance. Perhaps blast type weapons could gain "hits automatically" against any squad numbering 15/20 or more models. Whether that's an added rule given to each weapon, or perhaps a new weapon category can be made, called 'Blast', so a plasma cannon is "Blast d3" instead of "Heavy d3", and its special rule is "this weapon hits automatically against any target squad numbering 15/20 models or more".

- To a lesser degree, the change to AP and cover might have negatively affected weak armour save models, there are a lot of weapons that used to be very effective at mowing horde infantry down that are significantly weaker. Pretty much every small arm that used to ignore conscript saves now give them their full 5+, heavy bolters only reduce them to 6+, a battle cannon, which ignored power armour, is now only able to ignore guardsman flak if the model isn't in cover. A standard bolter being reduced in effectiveness by 33% makes horde armies that much more powerful because of it. What could be done here, I don't know. Maybe this is fine, so long as other changes are made to balance it out.
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Re: Most OP unit in the game?

Post by Warehammer » Wed Sep 13, 2017 9:55 pm

The one thing I think could surely help old blast weapons to re-gain some of their mojo is not necessarily having a point at which it auto-hits, but instead add +1 to hit for every 10 models in the target squad. Like everything else, a 1 is always a fail, so would effectively be capped at 2+, but would definitely help out.

No chance a battle cannon should be struggling to wipe out even just 30 conscripts.

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