Unfluffy Lists?

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Ronin
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Unfluffy Lists?

Post by Ronin » Sat Feb 17, 2018 2:20 pm

Random question since I don't play HH, but I got in a debate with some folks over what counts as fluffy and not. From a rough standpoint, it sounds like wargear is what determine a fluffy list rather than army composition of 40k so it's recommended you do hamper yourself with unoptimized weapons like heavy bolters even though folks are running around with power armor. In terms of army composition though, I'd imagine it's harder to call a list out as being unfluffy considering the legions had a lot more access to unit types than their 40k counterparts. Thoughts?

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Koonitz
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Re: Unfluffy Lists?

Post by Koonitz » Sat Feb 17, 2018 2:35 pm

Now, I haven't really read any of the novels or stories of Horus Heresy bar the fluff in the couple of rulebooks I do have (ie: Book 7 Inferno), but it's pretty clear (looking at the models and weapons available) that, during the Horus Heresy, there was an incredible arms race. Everyone knew the primary threat, from both sides, were Astartes. Were 3+ or better saves. And everyone armed themselves accordingly.

As such, I wouldn't go about saying heavy weapons squads would deliberately arm themselves with heavy bolters when they knew they were going up against an armoured column of tanks. If a Praetor was gathering a balanced engagement force to take them on, and had the means, he'd arm them with rocket launchers (because missiles miss) or lascannons.

A special weapons team may value plasma guns, despite the risk, over flamers when engaging a terminator strike force, or a robot heavy dark mechanicum list.

I don't really see the "heavy bolters are fluffy, despite power armour, therefore you should take them" argument. Heavy bolters are still fluffy, as they can provide some serious weight of fire, and may end up being the most viable option when facing massed infantry, even power armour, but you shouldn't feel obligated to take them if you would rather take a different weapon. In fact, I've never seen heavy weapons teams armed with heavy bolters in batreps (usually rocket launchers, sometimes lascannons), and never heard anyone complain.

Also, try goin' up to a HH veteran and tellin' him that he shouldn't take artificer armour on all of his sergeants, 'cause it's unfluffy.
Armies:
40k: Knights Cynosure Iron Hands successor chapter, House Terryn Questor Imperialis, Thousand Sons/Tzeentch Daemons
30k: Thousand Sons
Age of Sigmar: Sylvaneth, Disciples of Tzeentch

Ronin
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Re: Unfluffy Lists?

Post by Ronin » Sat Feb 17, 2018 3:02 pm

So it sounds to me it isn't really about fluff at all, but more of being able to produce a gentlemanly game. I could take whatever wargear or units even if it's depicted in the novels, but it'd be frowned upon if it makes a list too powerful?

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Koonitz
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Re: Unfluffy Lists?

Post by Koonitz » Sat Feb 17, 2018 6:33 pm

Ronin wrote:
Sat Feb 17, 2018 3:02 pm
So it sounds to me it isn't really about fluff at all, but more of being able to produce a gentlemanly game. I could take whatever wargear or units even if it's depicted in the novels, but it'd be frowned upon if it makes a list too powerful?
Bear in mind I also haven't played any games of 30k. From hearsay, I see AdMech doing well (suddenly shifting from dealing with a lot of AV14+Flare shield targets, to monstrous creatures makes for many lists being unable to handle those targets), and I see Thousand Sons + Magnus doing well.

Also, everyone I've read/listened to online say Legio Custodes are HILARIOUSLY under-costed and broken as heck.

Oh, and Leviathan Dreads in, like.... EVERY list (so much so that it's, frankly, boring to see them and killed any interest I had in owning a model).

Beyond that, if anyone walks up to you and tells you "Dude, you should be taking heavy bolters on your infantry 'cause it's, like, fluffy 'n stuff". You really should tell 'em to get bent.

Designing lists in this is no different than designing lists in 40k. If you're competitive, do what's competitive. If not, do what you want. If you want to go fluffy, then start grabbin' the novels and reading up to how your Legion fights. For instance, the Thousand Sons tended to favour Land Raiders over Rhinos for front line duty, because of the value they put in each and every one of their smaller number of hand picked soldiers. Beyond that, if I want to field a few extra Castellax-Achea instead of Contemptors, or vica versa, or if I want to have Predators ('cause I can buy the cheaper GW model) instead of Sicarans, then I can do so.

I fail to see the argument here in "fluffy or unfluffy". If you want what's fluffy, as I said, get the books, read up, do that, but don't feel like you should be beholden to that like the iron will of the Emperor. There are many options and variant ways to play your army. There are many different Rites of War available to every legion, regardless of primarch or loyalties (in fact, there are Rites of War specifically to represent a faction of a particular legion on the opposite side of the fence, such as a loyalist Iron Warriors force, or a heretical Ultramarines force). That's how far you can feel free to take your army.

Edit: Thinking of a decent example, the story I wrote on the history of my super-heavy Glaive tank's introduction to the Thousand Sons was due to my Praetor being on an archaeological mission on a particular planet where a numerically superior indigenous Xenos race engaged them in a protracted war. My Praetor requested a massive rearmament of Volkite weaponry for his forces. Is a large number of volkite weaponry fluffy? For this particular engagement, ABSOLUTELY!

Many, if not most, 30k players tend to be seasoned 40k players (for reasons I suspect you'll find obvious). As such, they tend to drift away from competitive, and lean more towards narrative/story-telling. That's what many 30k players say the game is primarily about.
Armies:
40k: Knights Cynosure Iron Hands successor chapter, House Terryn Questor Imperialis, Thousand Sons/Tzeentch Daemons
30k: Thousand Sons
Age of Sigmar: Sylvaneth, Disciples of Tzeentch

Salamand3rs4Lyfe
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Re: Unfluffy Lists?

Post by Salamand3rs4Lyfe » Fri Feb 23, 2018 4:29 pm

Personally i feel that the legiones astartes were flexible enough on the battlefield that almost any choices are fluffy as long as you have even a half decent story to justify them. I know i would love to make a horus heresy salamanders army if it wasn't so expensive.
Armies i collect:
11,115pts csm The Privileged
7,268pts Salamanders
1,200pts gsc Sons of Jormangandr

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