Rebalancing Primarchs

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Rebalancing Primarchs

Post by NotAlpharius » Fri Apr 28, 2017 5:06 pm

Does anybody else feel like GW needs to rethink some of the Primarch statlines/wargear/points? It seems like the earlier Primarchs are relatively balanced, but Russ and Magnus are way out of proportion.
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Re: Rebalancing Primarchs

Post by Xlv7 » Fri Apr 28, 2017 11:32 pm

I feel like all of the Primarchs including Magnus and Russ are pretty balanced. I played against a proxy Magnus and a thousands sons army. Magnus was terrifyingly powerful but he pretty much was the main heavy hitter in that army and I focused on nerving him through warp charge denial aka shooting and killing what ever units I could. Russ has the same issue as Angron as he is super easy to kite and if you can avoid combat your opponent has just sunk 455 points into a paper weight. I have always felt that the more powerful primarchs are Kurze and Corax as their ability to hop and in particular Kurzes fear bomb are particularly nasty when used correctly. But (K and C) I find that they are pretty much wiping out a squad a turn do to their hit and runs and large amounts of attacks on the charge.

I find that Magnus will destroy whatever he hits but he can only target on thing at a time. I figure that the most likely D shots are gonna be either Life Leech 2 shots or smite 4 shots. So I figure with those shots he is hitting the super heavies or larger targets allowing the smaller targets to swarm him. I lost my spartan to Magnus who was in turn swamped by reavers and Horus brought up the rear and finished the fight.

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Re: Rebalancing Primarchs

Post by NotAlpharius » Mon May 01, 2017 4:10 pm

Russ has the same issue as Angron as he is super easy to kite and if you can avoid combat your opponent has just sunk 455 points into a paper weight.
This can pretty much be said about any primarch so it's kindof a moot point. Sure it affects Alpharius and Guillimon less as some of their effectiveness (all in the case of Alpharius) is the fact that they are a force multiplier.

I haven't played against Magnus or Russ, but from I have read about Russ he is absolutely disgusting compared to other primarchs (the only thing you can really compare him to). First off he has an Angron-esque statline, already gross. But what makes him just the gooiest cheese out there is his wargear. His armor is not only 2+/4++ but allows him a 3++ against any form of plasma or melta, pretty much the only guns that threaten primarchs. And lets not stop there, why don't we just impose a -1/-2 To Hit modifier in combat just so everybody has to roll 6's or just flat can't hit him. Offensively he has a Sunder Axe for vehicles and a magical sword of doom that forces a toughness test on 2D6(!) or the target suffers more wounds.... When you put this all together it is utterly overkill as he is head and shoulders above most other primarchs.

Sure, Russ was one of the most potent melee primarchs, but he was beaten into the dirt by Angron (see events of Night of the Wolf) and even had some issues with Alpharius while he was disguised as a Lernean Terminator.
Last edited by NotAlpharius on Wed May 03, 2017 4:39 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Rebalancing Primarchs

Post by Kovlovsky » Mon May 01, 2017 4:25 pm

Personally, I think there should be a rebalancing. I saw a marked rise in power starting with Gulliman who's both very potent as a force multiplier and one of the most survivable primarch in combat. Russ is about at Horus' levels of power which is kind of exagerated even though he should be amongst the top CC primarchs. Basically, the primarchs that saw their rules released in the cluster of books around the Drop Pod Massacre books are all pretty much balanced and reflect the fluff pretty well, but the later released kind of escalated things. I think there should be some rebalancing for sure. Magnus might be a little too good in CC. He can change his size, but they didn't give him that capacity rules wise and he's otherwise not very much of a melee combattant. He's absolutely superior to anything that is not a primarch, but he should be in the average compared to other primarchs. Yet he reachs S9 with his Halberd. It's kind of strange.

Angron is now really too weak. I think they should review his weapons or maybe give him more base attacks or something. Mortarion should probably be made a little more survivable. He was inferior to Vulkan in survivability which is okay, but he was relatively superior to others from the first batch, but now he's overshadowed by Gulliman which is entirely ridiculous. Maybe Alpharius could get +1 strength from his necron spear or something. In all cases, I think the older primarchs should get something to bring them to the level of the new releases. Some of them are still pretty fine however. Vulkan, Horus, Ferrus Manus, Perturabo and maybe some others are still in the race, but Angron, Mortarion, Konrad Curze, Alpharius possibly Dorn are in need of some boosts. Alpharius should still be in the among the lower tiers for pure close combat since the fluff is pretty clear on the fact that he's smaller and less physically adept.
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Re: Rebalancing Primarchs

Post by Xlv7 » Wed May 03, 2017 11:10 am

I completely agree that Angron needs an update. The fact that he has a 3+ save for armor to me is embarrassing. No way does a son of the emperor go into battle with armor that weak. Magnus is not great at CC yea he has a high strength but compared to other primarch weapons I believe it is pretty fair.
The Primarchs that should get an update if they do.

Mortarian should get feel no pain base on top of his other abilities. Maybe have it so that he always is able to get that save no matter what weapon hits him.

Angron should get a 2+ save or maybe make him a 3+/3++ either works for me. Maybe make it so that he always hits on 2s similar to 40k kharn but if he misses he hits his own unit as he is just so angry. He would then ignore lemans special ability which would make the fight much more balanced.

Leman Russ: maybe only make it minus 1 to hit. Also the axe could be unwieldly. That would bring him more in line.

I feel that Fulgrim should also be reworked to reflect Leman Russ new status.

Other than that I feel that the primarchs are pretty in line with each other. Guilleman is not amazing in combat until later rounds but serves as force multiplier till then. Kurze is absolute murder on wings but is really not meant for the primarch fighting which is perfectly fine since he blends up any unit he comes into contact with same with Corax who is a flying buzz saw. I had a game this weekend where Pert went toe to toe with Russ for 5 combat rounds doing 4 wounds to russ only taking one in return until a angry group of wolf guard terminators with power fists showed up.

Is Russ an all powerful melee monster who will kill Kurze in one game turn yes. Is he strangely survivable to powerful weapons also yes but read the fluff like half the stuff the thousand sons threw at him bounced off. I think that yea there should be some tweaks to prexisting primarchs but overall i think it could be much worse. To me fighting russ is the same as fighting pert with the hammer. Painful frustrating to watch and you will probably lose in the long run but if Russ is on the board unless im fielding Horus my primarch is not going anywhere near that situation.

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Re: Rebalancing Primarchs

Post by NotAlpharius » Wed May 03, 2017 4:34 pm

read the fluff like half the stuff the thousand sons threw at him bounced off.
Counterpoint: Russ has a very strange psychic presence that tends manifests as an aura of intimidation beyond that of other primarchs. As a side benefit to this phenomenon, it seems that he is also surprisingly resilient to psychic potential/powers. If we use this explanation we can see how he was so resilient to Magnus and the Thousand Sons psychic shenanigans while it does not grant him extra resilience versus non-psychic sparring. A more accurate rule to reflect this would be granting him Adamantium Will or a something of the sort.
Maybe make it so that he always hits on 2s similar to 40k kharn but if he misses he hits his own unit as he is just so angry. He would then ignore lemans special ability which would make the fight much more balanced.
While yes, this would fix the Angron vs Leman problem but fixing that is only a very small part of the larger problem. That problem being he can be entirely unhittable by the majority of unit selections (and some primarchs) for no good reason. With the current rules Ferrus, Guilliman, Mortarion, Lorgar, Vulkan, Alpharius and Corax can only hit Russ on 6's [/u]while Horus, Pert, Kurze and Dorn have to hit on 6's in the 2nd round onwards. Try and explain how that isn't absolutely broken. Not to mention makes no sense narratively as he still had a problem dealing with Alpharius (see Wolf King novella).
axe could be unwieldly.
[/quote]That actually would not change anything.... he would only use the axe against vehicles and so it wouldn't matter if the axe made him I1....

*looked at the To Hit chart again and corrected a mistake
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Re: Rebalancing Primarchs

Post by NotAlpharius » Wed May 03, 2017 5:32 pm

Angron: should be 2+/5++, 4++ in a challenge, ignore To Hit penalties

Dorn: add a rule granting him an extra attack for every wound he takes in combat to a maximum of 7 attacks total. This would represent his simmering anger and contempt boiling over. Also having 4 base attacks is pretty weak.

Mortarion:
give him FNP, grant him ability to half attacks (rounding up) to apply D3 wounds instead of just 1

Curze: maybe a points readjustment or granting a 12" stubborn bubble. I feel he is actually pretty balanced in combat. He already cuts through squads like a plasma cannon through butter but compared to primarchs he is still a beast. WS8 means he hits on 3's and 4's, S6 wounds primarchs on 4's and has Shred for that reroll, AP2 so only Inv saves are in play, has 6 attacks naturally.

Magnus: I have no clue how to balance this monster

Guilliman: limit save reroll to 1 per player turn, not 1 per phase. This is mostly a subtle change as it won't really affect the actual usage of this reroll except turn where he is catching bullets from normal shooting/overwatch and charging/being charged.

Alpharius either +1 strength (2 handed weapon after all) or Master Crafted (being adept at using a double ended blade) on his fancy spear. Maybe knocking 10pts off his price tag since he replaces a tactical marine when you use his One of Many deployment rules and thusly incurs a 10pt tax to an already overcosted primarch. He would be aptly priced if his Preferred Enemy (Everything) applied to Alpha legion vehicles but well undercosted if in games larger than 3,000pts. Agreed he should still be bottom tier for individual primarch prowess.
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Re: Rebalancing Primarchs

Post by Kovlovsky » Wed May 03, 2017 6:33 pm

Xlv7 wrote: Guilleman is not amazing in combat until later rounds but serves as force multiplier till then. Kurze is absolute murder on wings but is really not meant for the primarch fighting which is perfectly fine since he blends up any unit he comes into contact with same with Corax who is a flying buzz saw.
This is not actually true. Gulliman is effectively one of the top combat primarchs due to the fact that he's extremely difficult to injure and because he becomes stronger the longer the fight lasts. Statistically, he is only beaten by five primarchs: Horus, Angron, Fulgrim, Lorgar (only with the help of Invisibility, otherwise he's stomped in the dust) and Leman Russ. All the others are beaten statistically. Some of these wins are close fights, but many of them are almost one sided, especially against the weaker ones like Alpharius.
Xlv7 wrote:I had a game this weekend where Pert went toe to toe with Russ for 5 combat rounds doing 4 wounds to russ only taking one in return until a angry group of wolf guard terminators with power fists showed up.
One game isn't sufficient to find a statistical trend. You would need to run a lot of battles. Statistically, they all lose pretty badly. Even the heavy hitters struggle against him and will only win from time to time. Perturabo is one of those that can sometime win, but it's not very likel. They really made it OP for no reason. He should be beatable by other combat primarchs, especially Horus.
Xlv7 wrote:Is Russ an all powerful melee monster who will kill Kurze in one game turn yes. Is he strangely survivable to powerful weapons also yes but read the fluff like half the stuff the thousand sons threw at him bounced off. I think that yea there should be some tweaks to prexisting primarchs but overall i think it could be much worse. To me fighting russ is the same as fighting pert with the hammer. Painful frustrating to watch and you will probably lose in the long run but if Russ is on the board unless im fielding Horus my primarch is not going anywhere near that situation.
He's resistant to psychic powers, yes. Should he easily beat non combat primarchs? Yes. Should he be stronger than Horus? No.
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Re: Rebalancing Primarchs

Post by NotAlpharius » Wed May 03, 2017 6:39 pm

I had a game this weekend where Pert went toe to toe with Russ for 5 combat rounds doing 4 wounds to russ only taking one in return
What that is telling me is that your opponent rolled exceptionally well (5's to hit in the 1st round and 6's in the following 4) To Hit and you didn't make many Inv saves while having some subpar hit/wound rolls yourself (or Pert made all the saves).
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Re: Rebalancing Primarchs

Post by Xlv7 » Wed May 03, 2017 7:45 pm

What I was trying to say with Pert is that a Primarch who is not a dedicated melee monster was able to stand against Leman Russ. Things can and will happen in a dice game.first time ever facing Russ I lost a full strength Konrad Kurze with a 15 man raptor squad to Russ in two rounds of combat it was so fast it was disgusting.

I respectfully disagree with Guilleman. I agree that he is a good combatant. However having to wait 2 to three turns for him to get the edge with his preternatural skill or whatever he has makes him a bit weaker in the earlier stages of a combat. If he lasts until later rounds then yes he is awesome. I would rather fight Guilleman with my primarchs (Horus, Pert, Kurze) than say a primarch like like Vulcan, mannus or fulgrim. As they either have more attacks or a better weapon. Hand of Dominion is great but Dawnbringer or Forgebreaker at iniative is better. In the games I've played against roboute I have killed him more than he has killed me (primarch fight wise). I am newer to sons of Horus so Horus hasn't had his shown down with man yet. I will say Pert and Kurze are scarier than roboute in my opinion in the games I have played.

Aside from that.

I really don't think Kurze should be changed. I often feel like I am cheating whenever I field him as his damage output is just obscene. Not to mention the buffs for his legion are spot on. 4+ cover due on first turn due to forced night fighting is amazing.

Mortarion I generally think is fine as is. Again maybe adding feel no pain or some such thing.

Vulcan to reflect his status as a perpetual should do the 40k Guilleman thing we're you can resurrect him once per game with d3 wound remaing.

Alpharius maybe plus one strength to his spear but overall he is solid.

Corax is fine.

Horus is fine.

Angron something with his saves needs to happen he is just to frail but I think his current damage output is more than adequate. Is 2+ 4++ to much for a guy to ask for.

Pert again fine maybe a decrease in points for his hammerless form.

Magnus. FAQ out the D nova abilities at 18 inches I honestly think he would be fine. He supposed to be a psychic monster so I think he is generally fine as without his psychic powers he will pretty much lose to most things.

Lorgar is fine maybe the only counter to a beefed up Magnus.

I think Fulgrims weapon should get some form of upgrade as it's rather bland. But he himself is pretty damn good.

I think Dorn for his points cost is amazing. I think he needs relentless so he can shoot and charge. I think he is generally fine for his points cost and abilities. But I would be open to the idea of a complete redo for him.

Reading the Night of the Wolf again. Amazing story. Russ didn't have his current loadout he had at prospero. He was using his original chain sword. He also wasn't trying to kill Angron only trying to either bring him in or to teach him that tactics actually mean something rather than murdering everything in sight. I really attribute that as to why Angron won the fight.

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Re: Rebalancing Primarchs

Post by Xlv7 » Wed May 03, 2017 7:59 pm

Forgot to add Russ to the list above. I would change his negative to hit modifier to -1 standard. I think given his status as the executioner and the emperors primarch killer he should win against all primarchs save for Horus, Sanguinius or maybe the Lion( gotta admit my knowledge on him is limited)

Wolf Novella it's been awhile since I read it but I remember correctly Alpharius fought Leman Russ at the end of the battle when Leman was about to make his last stand. Alpharius was probably pretty fresh to the fight while Leman may have been. A tad tuckered out. So I would say the situation in that book which again haven't read in awhile so operating off my memory put a more skilled but extremely worn out warrior vs a fresh warrior who by definition does not fight fair.

I should say for the record I'm not a Leman Russ fan boy at all. I generally gravitate towards the traitor legions and my all time favorites the Blood Angels. However I was super excited to see an absolute combat monster finally take the crown from Horus. It was boring seeing Horus win every fight. What I think will happen since Big Daddy E will soon be entering the fray is Horus will get an upgrade to be the dark version of himself where he is a massively powerful psycher and retaining his current status as one of the best primarch killers.

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Re: Rebalancing Primarchs

Post by NotAlpharius » Wed May 03, 2017 10:54 pm

They probably won't rebalance the primarchs anytime soon. Maybe once they release all of them towards the end of the heresy or maybe they will just wait and make 30k rules for the daemon primarchs. Kinda sucks for Alpharius since he gets dead and Curze since he doesn't pledge to a god before the heresy plays out.
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Re: Rebalancing Primarchs

Post by NotAlpharius » Wed May 03, 2017 11:06 pm

He also wasn't trying to kill Angron only trying to either bring him in or to teach him that tactics actually mean something rather than murdering everything in sight.
True Angron was pretty much going all out since his gladiatorial history has taught him that any duel is always cranked up to 11 and should pretty much end with atleast one participant dead. Obviously he stopped, can't exactly remember why. I got this nagging feeling it was because he couldn't kill his brother and he felt that beating him into the dirt was good enough to prove Russ wrong. I might need to reread that part of Betrayer. I'm pretty sure Russ realized once Angron was lost to the Nails he also went whole hog.
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Re: Rebalancing Primarchs

Post by Xlv7 » Thu May 04, 2017 8:23 am

Yea. Remembering Night of the Wolf Russ was ordered to stop Angron use of the butchers nails on his legion. Wolves deployed and Russ and Angron started the duel. Russ wasn't trying to kill Angron as again not ordered to and wanting to teach him a lesson. Angron wins the fight but loses the battle as Russ had him completely surrounded. Angron didn't care that he had lost tactically because he killed more wolves then he had lost. Russ realized that Angron was a lost cause and withdrew from the conflict.

Also you never know about the primarch rebalances. The last red book introduces a lot of tweaks to the primarchs that made them a lot better than they were originally.

Example: Dorn lost unwieldy on his weapon as well as Mortarion

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Re: Rebalancing Primarchs

Post by Kovlovsky » Thu May 04, 2017 9:17 am

Xlv7 wrote:Also you never know about the primarch rebalances. The last red book introduces a lot of tweaks to the primarchs that made them a lot better than they were originally.

Example: Dorn lost unwieldy on his weapon as well as Mortarion
Right. FW always tweaks its stuff when they publish an update. However, what I wonder about is if they will finish the rules of what is still missing for the 7th edition or they will start over with the 8th edition. The former possibility sounds unusual and the later sounds like a daunting and counterproductive task since it would slow them down to snail speed and would kind of harm the playability of their system until the update is done which could be as long of a wait.
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