Curious on starting the Heresy

All discussions for Warhammer 30k (i.e. Horus Heresy), including Pre-Heresy, Heresy, and Post-Heresy go here.
Locked
User avatar
SweetSorrow
MiniWarGaming Grand Marshall
Posts: 4199
Joined: Tue Mar 08, 2011 9:46 pm
Ribbons Earned: Has Completed 5 Painting PledgesHas Completed 10 Painting PledgesHas Completed 25 Painting PledgesWon a Painting Deathmatch Side ChallengeCompleted a Painting Deathmatch Side Challenge Entry
Location: Cincinnati
Contact:

Curious on starting the Heresy

Post by SweetSorrow » Thu Mar 23, 2017 8:13 pm

So as a newcomer coming back to warhammer after several years, I noticed there is this new thing called 30k. Was wondering if I could get a bit more background? Is it drastically different from 40k? Is it Space Marines only? Are Word Bearers any good? Do every legion get their own special units like the EC Phoenix guard or the Medusae Terminators for the Iron Hands?
The Stars Await, Let us now wander together.

Well then, this is rather entertaining
Chaos Marines - 5,000
IIIIIIIIII

User avatar
Kovlovsky
Epic MiniWarGaming Poster, 'nuff said
Posts: 5758
Joined: Wed Jul 16, 2014 6:40 pm
Location: Québec

Re: Curious on starting the Heresy

Post by Kovlovsky » Thu Mar 23, 2017 10:33 pm

SweetSorrow wrote:So as a newcomer coming back to warhammer after several years, I noticed there is this new thing called 30k. Was wondering if I could get a bit more background? Is it drastically different from 40k? Is it Space Marines only? Are Word Bearers any good? Do every legion get their own special units like the EC Phoenix guard or the Medusae Terminators for the Iron Hands?
Hey! Basically, 30k is mostly an expansion for 40k. There are some rules differences, but it's mostly limited to army structure including the ally matrix and adding new special rules for the guns and units that are specific to 30k. But the core of 40k rules are absolutely identical.

It's mostly space marines, but not only them. First, you have the Solar Auxilia which is the Imperial of 30k. Compared to its grimdark younger brother, the Auxilia's infantry is better equiped especially in terms of armor (at least 4+ save for everyone), have better lasguns and have more powerful transports. Also, the Leman Russes are slightly faster too because they aren't heavy vehicles I believe. They also have special rules that encourage playing in close formation by giving you bonuses if my memory is good. They are also better at close combat. But all in all, the gameplay is relatively similar.

Certain traitor legions can also ally with daemons like the Word Bearers. So that's another army that you can play. You can also play them alone and you get some daemon characters like Samus (no, not the futuristic girl with big guns and spandex suits from Nintendo games :D) and a Nurgle one with an unpronouncable name.

They don't have 30k specific rules, but the HH books mention several wars against Orks and Eldars too. So, you can play with them, but the balance isn't always great when you do (the Eldars, in particular, are a bit too powerful for a 30k army since everything in 30k is expensive initially, but adding models in the unit is relatively cheaper because they want to encounrage big armies).

As for the Word Bearers, they are powerful for sure. Their special rules are great and favor close combat. It's tough to break their morale in close combat and they reroll rolls of 1 when making their sweeping advance tests. They also love Chaplains (Dark Apostles) and their special characters are powerful. Lorgar is the worst primarch in his pre-Heresy form, but you can upgrade to his form after he embraced Chaos worship and he becomes a very powerful psyker which makes him one of the strongest primarch as long as you pick Telepathy as a discipline. This is because he gets to pick the powers he wants and manifests his warp charges on 3+, so you are garanteed of getting invisibility and it's very probable that you will manifest it. They also get the possessed that every Chaos player would dream of: the Gal Vorbak. They don't have an unreliable mutation chart, are two wounds each except their leader who has 3 (!) with WS, Strength and Toughness 5 and their attacks are rending. On top of that, they still have their bolt pistols, a close combat weapon, a bolter (so they have 3 attacks base) and 1 on 5 can take a special weapon or a power weapon! They can even deep strike! And like their 40k lesser brethrens, they have the Daemon special rule. It's one of the best non terminator close combat units in 30k. Lastly, the Word Bearers are one of the best supported legion by FW.

About special units, FW clearly wants to give all legions their own special units (usually, it's 2 by legion), but some legions still haven't received them. The ones who don't have their own special units yet are the Dark Angels, the Blood Angels, the White Scars from memory, but it's only a question of time before they do. It will probably be done in the next book.
Forum's NKVD Cpt. Kovlovsky

40k : 3945 points of Thousand Sons
380 pts of Tzeentch Daemons of Chaos

Thousand Sons WiP : http://www.miniwargaming.com/forum/view ... 6&t=114889

Fantasy : OnG

User avatar
Koonitz
Mighty Manufactorium of MiniWarGaming Posts
Posts: 2833
Joined: Thu Aug 07, 2014 8:20 pm
Ribbons Earned: Has Completed 5 Painting PledgesHas Completed 10 Painting Pledges
Location: Grande Prairie, AB, CA

Re: Curious on starting the Heresy

Post by Koonitz » Fri Mar 24, 2017 2:01 am

While there is some cross reference, and the rules are compatible, I find it easier to consider 30k and 40k completely different games. The balance is a little different, and the rules are actually more akin to 6th Edition than 7th, by virtue of one specific change. Only troops units are scoring units (a main feature of 6th Edition gameplay that was removed in 7th in favour of the "Objective Secured" rule).

30k also tends to feature one of Forge World's trademarks. More focus on balanced, fun and flavourful rules and gameplay. It's a fair bit easier to balance a game where 18 of the 20 factions are Space Marines of various flavours (the other 2 being Solar Auxilia and Mechanicus Taghmata).

If you are a fan of the Great Crusade and Horus Heresy timeline, I do encourage it. I do think that, with the coming 8th Edition of 40k, many people are saying that 8th Edition is going to be the 'beginner' and easier ruleset, with 30k becoming the "for Veterans", more complicated ruleset. I suspect this will happen by simple virtue of player preference, assuming Forge World does not try to update their basic rules and says "Continue to use 7th Edition rules and the modifications laid out in our rulebooks". Seems to be going along the same vein as D&D 4th Edition and Pathfinder, for anyone who does the whole tabletop RP.
Armies:
40k: Knights Cynosure Iron Hands successor chapter, House Terryn Questor Imperialis, Thousand Sons/Tzeentch Daemons
30k: Thousand Sons
Age of Sigmar: Sylvaneth, Disciples of Tzeentch

User avatar
SweetSorrow
MiniWarGaming Grand Marshall
Posts: 4199
Joined: Tue Mar 08, 2011 9:46 pm
Ribbons Earned: Has Completed 5 Painting PledgesHas Completed 10 Painting PledgesHas Completed 25 Painting PledgesWon a Painting Deathmatch Side ChallengeCompleted a Painting Deathmatch Side Challenge Entry
Location: Cincinnati
Contact:

Re: Curious on starting the Heresy

Post by SweetSorrow » Fri Mar 24, 2017 2:20 pm

Hmm, I see, Thank you both. So sounds like its fun and well supported as long as you don't mind buying from forgeworld. Is the box games really the best way to start out with the Hersey? Also do you have to pick Loyalist or Chaos or can I play my army as either or depending on scenario and such? I ask cause I have a habit in larger games of rarely getting the side I want as organizers usually slot me into which ever side needs points. :c
As for Primarchs to be honest I dont think I ever plan on buying or fielding a primarch. Not sure why just never was that allured by them as much as I was some of their captains or commanders. Thinking like Saul Tarvitz, Lord Commander Markius? (The second EC one, I dont remember his name exactly), Ahriman, Little Horus, etc
Closest ones i liked were Angron, Mortarion, and Sangunius

thinking of the last apoc game I played sigh.
The Stars Await, Let us now wander together.

Well then, this is rather entertaining
Chaos Marines - 5,000
IIIIIIIIII

User avatar
Kovlovsky
Epic MiniWarGaming Poster, 'nuff said
Posts: 5758
Joined: Wed Jul 16, 2014 6:40 pm
Location: Québec

Re: Curious on starting the Heresy

Post by Kovlovsky » Fri Mar 24, 2017 2:38 pm

SweetSorrow wrote:Hmm, I see, Thank you both. So sounds like its fun and well supported as long as you don't mind buying from forgeworld. Is the box games really the best way to start out with the Hersey?
Yes, it's a great value for your money and gives a sizable army with quite a bit of options. It really gives you a great base to build up tour army. Note that FW bits for HH are fully compatible with the boxed sets marines. You can also buy these boxed set in bundle with power armor upgrade kits for your legion on the FW website if you want to customise their look.
SweetSorrow wrote:Also do you have to pick Loyalist or Chaos or can I play my army as either or depending on scenario and such? I ask cause I have a habit in larger games of rarely getting the side I want as organizers usually slot me into which ever side needs points. :c
It depends. Many legions are split in loyalist and traitor factions, others are united in supporting one faction. The legions that have split loyalties often have loyalist and traitor special characters and you can't use them in an army that has the wrong loyalty. So depending of your choice, you might be "compelled" to play one side. There is also the possibility of making an army of marines that dropped their formed loyalty for their former legion for a reason or another and fight on their own terms. In that situation, you can make them either supporting one side or just being space pirates.
SweetSorrow wrote:As for Primarchs to be honest I dont think I ever plan on buying or fielding a primarch. Not sure why just never was that allured by them as much as I was some of their captains or commanders. Thinking like Saul Tarvitz, Lord Commander Markius? (The second EC one, I dont remember his name exactly), Ahriman, Little Horus, etc
Closest ones i liked were Angron, Mortarion, and Sangunius thinking of the last apoc game I played sigh.
You don't have to field them. They are worth a lot of points anyway, so they are hard to fit in an army under 2000 pts considering that in the HH rules, your Lord of War slot cannot be worth more than 25% of the total of your list. Some legions kind of need their special characters to shine though, especially the Alpha Legion. But even them have a great special character if you don't like the idea of playing with primarchs (Armyllus Dynat).
Forum's NKVD Cpt. Kovlovsky

40k : 3945 points of Thousand Sons
380 pts of Tzeentch Daemons of Chaos

Thousand Sons WiP : http://www.miniwargaming.com/forum/view ... 6&t=114889

Fantasy : OnG

User avatar
Koonitz
Mighty Manufactorium of MiniWarGaming Posts
Posts: 2833
Joined: Thu Aug 07, 2014 8:20 pm
Ribbons Earned: Has Completed 5 Painting PledgesHas Completed 10 Painting Pledges
Location: Grande Prairie, AB, CA

Re: Curious on starting the Heresy

Post by Koonitz » Fri Mar 24, 2017 3:38 pm

SweetSorrow wrote:Hmm, I see, Thank you both. So sounds like its fun and well supported as long as you don't mind buying from forgeworld. Is the box games really the best way to start out with the Hersey?
Kov gave good advice overall, but I thought I'd add a bit more advice in regards to the box sets, Betrayal at Calth (BaC) and Burning of Prospero (BoP).

Overall, the Betrayal at Calth box set is a generally better value when you are buying bulk for a single army. Every model that comes included is usable in any Marine Legion army. Whereas in Burning of Prospero, you get some models that are not usable in Legion armies at all. The Legio Custodes and Sisters of Silence models, as well as the two special character models, themed a little too specific towards Thousand Sons and Space Wolves.

Beyond that, be aware of the differences in the models that do come in the two boxes. While some will matter in terms of rules (BaC comes with Cataphractii Terminators, BoP with Tartaros Terminators, both of which have different rules), some are simply cosmetic (BaC comes with Mk IV power armour Marines, BoP comes with Mk III). Knowing the difference will help you make the right choice on which will fit your preferred style.

For me, as a Thousand Sons player, I recall reading that they had a larger number of Mk III Marines over the newer Mk IV, so the BoP box is slightly more thematic to use for the bulk of the army. However, as I have one of each, and I did purchase the Thousand Sons infantry upgrade kit from Forge World, I can make all of the Mk IV armour look uniquely Thousand Sons. As such, I intend to use them for the more specialist units, such as Veteran Tacticals and the unique units.

GW is also in the process of releasing these models in individual unit boxes that can be purchased separately. So, while it's nice to buy the box set in bulk to save some money, you don't need to buy excessively to round out your army.
Armies:
40k: Knights Cynosure Iron Hands successor chapter, House Terryn Questor Imperialis, Thousand Sons/Tzeentch Daemons
30k: Thousand Sons
Age of Sigmar: Sylvaneth, Disciples of Tzeentch

MetalNids
MiniWarGaming Veteran
Posts: 161
Joined: Wed Oct 07, 2015 6:48 am

Re: Curious on starting the Heresy

Post by MetalNids » Fri Mar 24, 2017 4:59 pm

One of the biggest benefits of Heresy armies is balance. Aside from special units for each army (which provides the uniqueness of the armies), everyone has access to the same gear and same rules. Be aware that initial unit costs are more than in a 40k army, but adding to that unit is cheaper for the most part. The units in 30k are more specialized, you won't see as many units with a mix of weapons. Also be aware that some unit sizes start at 10, and not the typical 5 like a lot do in 40k.

I would recommend reading about the different armies that there are rules for, there are a couple that do not have formal army specific rule yet, and figure out which you like most. That will help with buying models. As said before the BaC and BoP boxes are great boxes to buy to get models on the table. The BaC box has the benefit that every model in the box can be used by every army. The BoP does have a few that are very specialized, and probably would not see much action.
I play the following Warhammer 40K armies:
Bugs
CSM
Harlequins
Cult Mechanicus
Chaos Demons

User avatar
NotAlpharius
MiniWarGaming Veteran
Posts: 174
Joined: Thu Oct 20, 2016 3:13 pm
Location: Somewhere

Re: Curious on starting the Heresy

Post by NotAlpharius » Mon Mar 27, 2017 7:56 pm

Is it Space Marines only?
As for the rules, it is all Imperium forces. However, one could make the argument that Orks and Eldar (vanilla, dark and clown flavored) were known and active during the Heresy time frame. The rules/wargear/points costs for 30k era marines are designed to be balanced against other marines/auxilia not the 40k xenos races (not Mechanicum, they are pretty darn strong if you don't know they are coming).

If you really wanted to play Orks I don't think anyone would give you too hard a time. Who doesn't love an Ork player? As to Eldar, that will most likely be an uphill battle to get that OK'd in you club or among friends.
All generalizations are false.

Locked

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest