Rust's Newbie Tau Question Thread

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Re: Rust's Newbie Tau Question Thread

Post by Rust » Sat Sep 22, 2012 12:51 am

potato32 wrote:
Rust wrote:HQ has Hardwired Blacksun Filter(this is an El?)
Yeah, sorry, it's a Shas'el. I'm honestly trying to figure out what's up with the Shas'o. 25 extra points for three extra points. Strikes me the "discount" version gives you performance that is just as good for way less.
Hardwired Target Lock(why?)
Because...*Re-reads entry*...oh. Wow. That was dumb of me, wasn't it?
Airbursting Fragmentation Projector
big suggestion here, don't mix anti-horde with anti-termies, missile pods or fusion blaster complements a plasma rifle, AFP complements burst cannons or flamers.
Not going to lie - I read the description and all that ran through my head was a Crisis Suit screaming "I make it rain!" and explosions engulfing his position.

I have a "thing" for AoE. I actually was reviewing this choice and thinking it was too impulsive.
115 Points
Rule of thumb, if your shas'el costs more than 100 without drones, it means you can spend the points nowhere else.
But even with Target Lock and AFP removed and Missile Pod added, it still comes out to 102 for the HQ.
I'd take advance stab systems, move and shoot is dandy
And fits well with what I want to do. Honestly when I first read the description of the butt (heh), I was confused as to what that actually meant.
Blacksun Filters(why is this here?)
...to help with night fighting...?
To cut the pts, I would keep them in squadrons of 1(yeah I know, KP will hate you)
It saves on the target locks and they might not die as fast. I would also give them fusion guns
KP? Sorry, I'm still new to all the abbreviations. And I never thought about putting them in separate squads. And Fusion Blasters? I can see the appeal - turns them into anti-tank platforms - but (and I apologize for the noobishness here) is the +3 in strength worth the six inch drop in range?

My vision for the Piranhas is more "shoot and scoot" then "Prepare for Ramming Speed!". If I'm talking out my advanced stabilisation system, I apologize but to me the extra range is worth the overall sacrifice in power. Unless it'd be better to take the anti-armor capability? It would be embarrassing to have some fleet of foot skirmishers only to have my poor Fire Warriors crushed underfoot by a Razorback.
The markerlight on the 'ui is not an idea I would advocate, nor the blacksun filter on a devilfish...
The Markerlight was in response to cutting the Sniper Drones (Who come with it), and because I am a utter moron that fails at reading comprehension. :oops:

In the Broadside's description, I read that it came with a twin linked railgun and seeker missile system. Except it's not seeker missiles...it's smart missiles. *Facepalm*

On the plus side, I do have a lot more points to play with now. Once I clear up the issue with the Piranhas I'll draft up a new list. Maybe I'll have the points for some Sniper Drones (They pique my interest. And have a 36" range).
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Re: Rust's Newbie Tau Question Thread

Post by potato32 » Sat Sep 22, 2012 1:37 am

Blacksun filters remove the 36 inches max during the night, it removes stealth when firing at 12 to 24 inches and shrouded when from 24 to 36... when your guns fire at 12 or have such a low AP armor saves will be taken anyway, there is no reason to take a blacksun filter.

KP means kill points, the mission of the BRB are I believe crusade and and purge the alien where the fact of separating them might hurt. (oddly enough, I find myself using the gun drones squadrons to capture objectives if I can hide them well enough during crusade missions)

Actually, if you use the fusion, it is ap1, so +2 on the vehicle dmg table, and it is a melta, so if within half its range you add 2d6 to pen armor rather than 1d6. The pirhana with a fusion is what I call a Bee, it tends to sting once, then takes efforts out of your enemy to Swat it dead. It won't sting twice unless some random chaos god interveenes, likely it will have done its job.

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Re: Rust's Newbie Tau Question Thread

Post by Rust » Sat Sep 22, 2012 9:30 am

potato32 wrote: Actually, if you use the fusion, it is ap1, so +2 on the vehicle dmg table, and it is a melta, so if within half its range you add 2d6 to pen armor rather than 1d6. The pirhana with a fusion is what I call a Bee, it tends to sting once, then takes efforts out of your enemy to Swat it dead. It won't sting twice unless some random chaos god interveenes, likely it will have done its job.
So essentially Anti-Vehicle Suicide Units. Not what I want the Piranhas to be in this army. I envision them more as a Light Calvary/flanker force that can sweep in and punch out a enemy or two before darting out of range. And if an enemy does venture in too close, the Flechette Discharger is there to punish them for it. I figure the Broadside would be the go-to Anti-Vehicle weapon in my army.

But again, I do see what you mean. I just don't like the idea of throwing away what ultimately is the biggest points sponge in this initial list. I suppose I can just magnetize the weaponry and try it both ways to see which is ultimately more effective.


EDIT: As for the old Tau Codex. Seems I could buy it for a penny. :lol:
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Re: Rust's Newbie Tau Question Thread

Post by hakunamatartin » Sat Sep 22, 2012 1:13 pm

Rust wrote:So essentially Anti-Vehicle Suicide Units. Not what I want the Piranhas to be in this army. I envision them more as a Light Calvary/flanker force that can sweep in and punch out a enemy or two before darting out of range. And if an enemy does venture in too close, the Flechette Discharger is there to punish them for it. I figure the Broadside would be the go-to Anti-Vehicle weapon in my army.
Well, you are looking at a fast light vehicle that can potentially kill a super-heavy like a spehs mehrine land raider. A 75 point (piranha with targeting array, fusion blaster and disruption pod) exchange for a 250 point vehicle is definitivily worth the sacrifice. As with all commanders in war, you'll realize that it's not a matter of avoiding sacrifice, but a matter of correct and necessary sacrifice to the task at hand. This is one of the tabletop truths that just don't appear in Dawn of War: Dark Crusade/Soulstorm. I've even assaulted with crisis suits just for the sake of sacrifice to save other units from total slaughter (dependent on situation, turn, mission etc. etc.), and you will probably understand in time the meaning of sacrifice as a Tau player.

Why do you think MWG Dave brings two full units of assault mehrines with a couple of meltas and powerfists to nearly every game where he plays Blood Angels? Because they fill multiple roles of course. They are anti-infantry, anti-vehicle and anti-MC's all in one blob and thus always ready to face the task at hand. Now THAT is a point for model effectiveness you just can't get in the current Tau codex, and one of the reasons why I loathe sppehhs mehrines as they are obviously favoured in the 40k universe (table top).

You are right in that railguns are the ultimate (and safest) anti-tank weaponry, but whether one chooses broadsides as the only anti-tank strategy, melta-toating piranhas and/or deep-striking, suicide battlesuits is a matter of choice and playstyle. Remember, it's always good to have a "Plan B", and a lascannon heavy army could potentially wipe out the broadsides before they even get to fire a shot (dependent on dice gods, cover, shield drones etc. etc.). In war, the most important strategy is to neutralize your opponent's advantage, or even use it against him if possible. Guerilla warfare against a conventional army and the use of Stinger missiles in the Afghan-Soviet war is a historic example of this in practice. Anyone tailoring a flyer-heavy list against Tau is a table-top example-

I approve of your thoughts on using the piranha as a "hit and run" unit, but unfortunately it cannot shoot and retreat in the same turn. Eldar/Dark Eldar jetbikes are the only "vehicles" I've seen that can actually do this effectively with their assault-move. As MWG-Matt so bluntly put it at the end of a "Beat Matt BatRep" against Dark Eldar: "They [Dark Eldar] are everything The Tau should be, and everything The Tau aren't." Ouch. Luckily, 6th edition made Tau a lot better than they were in 5th, but newer codex > older codex nonetheless.
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Re: Rust's Newbie Tau Question Thread

Post by Rust » Sat Sep 22, 2012 1:21 pm

I hear ya. I suppose if I want that kind of "Poke and Run" I'll wind up with some Eldar/Dark Eldar as allies down the road. But for right now...

It helps when you put it down as a point for point break down. 75 vs 250. I didn't really think about it in those terms.
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Re: Rust's Newbie Tau Question Thread

Post by Rust » Sat Sep 22, 2012 5:46 pm

Alright. Let's try this dance again.

Tau 750 Point List:

=HQ=
Shas'el
-Hardwired Blacksun Filter
-Hardwired Multi-tracker
-Plasma Rifle
-Missile Pod
-Targeting Array

=Heavy Assault=
Shas'ui XV88 Broadside Battlesuit
-Hardwired Blacksun Filter
- Hardwired Multi-Tracker
- Advanced Stabilization System

=Fast Attack=
Piranha Light Skimmer
- Gun Drone x2
- Fusion Blaster
- Disruption Pod
- Targeting Array

Piranha Light Skimmer
- Gun Drone x2
- Fusion Blaster
- Disruption Pod
- Targeting Array

Piranha Light Skimmer
- Gun Drone x2
- Fusion Blaster
- Disruption Pod
- Targeting Array

=Troops=
Fire Warrior Team
- 11 Members
- Shas'ui
- Bonding Knife

Fire Warrior Team
- 10 Members
- Shas'ui
- Bonding Knife

Devilfish Troop Carrier
- Gun Drones x2
- Burst Cannon
- Disruption Pod
- Decoy Launchers

Total Points: 748

I got to the end of the list with only 718 points this time around, so I revisited the Fire Warriors and tacked on a few since I had the point spread. Was tempted to throw a Shield Drone in both squads, but I'm not certain I'm understanding Invulnerable Saves - specifically whether or not it would apply to the squad or just the Drone. Besides, with just one wound I'm not sure how potent it would be. On another tack, would I be better off acquiring Blacksun Filters for the Shas'uis in my squad or am I just obsessed with the Blacksun Filters and need to stop?

Also, since my Piranhas are now all separate squads, what happens with their Gun Drones? When they get deployed do they attach to the Piranha or will they act independently? The Codex doesn't specify and there's nothing in the Piranha entry to indicate it's a Drone Controller.
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Re: Rust's Newbie Tau Question Thread

Post by Nocturus » Sat Sep 22, 2012 11:50 pm

Ditch the decoy launcher on the DF and give the FW squads BSFs. You aren't wrong to give them to every squad with a range over 24 inches.

As for the drones they will each form their own two man squad when seperated from the piranha now that the piranhas are all separate units. Remember they can never rejoin.

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Re: Rust's Newbie Tau Question Thread

Post by hakunamatartin » Sun Sep 23, 2012 12:43 am

Hmmm...are you thinking speed-freakish with this list since you brought 3 piranhas with meltas in a 750 list? It's quite unorthodox, so I actually like it...though it probably isn't competetive. I'd love to see the face of your opponent as he's probably never encontered a Tau vehicle force rushing towards him.
Keep in mind, like potato pointed out, that piranhas are bees that sting once and usually die afterwards. If they miss (33% chance), they die without accomplishing much. Although I gave the whole speech about sacrifice, this would be sacrificing too much as nearly 25% of your points total are one shot suicide runs (if your opponent keeps his forces together).
Basically, they'll get close combated to death after having made their shot at melta-range, unless your opponent foolishly decides to scatter/isolate his vehicles after having seen three fast, mobile meltas.
So, to make them count...they need to take out their total cost at the least, and I rather doubt that'll happen against a decent player at this point level.
Quite possibly, your opponent will bubblewrap the heavy and rush towards you as a giant bubble of death. Having 200+ points flying around and just waiting for a chance to sacrifice themselves isn't a good thing in a 750 point game. I think one piranha would do the trick just as well.

Back to the list
Shas'el is good, though I wonder what your plan is to protect him. It's not a good idea to have your squishy warlord running around on his own.
Broadside is a bit waste of points. Are you aware that the A.S.S. doesn't allow him to overwatch? That will simply defeat the purpose of even having a multi-tracker in my mind.
Like Noc said, the fire warrior teams needs black sun filters, though I'd personally drop the devilfish and spend the points elsewhere - like another firewarrior team, or some crisis suits.
Like I said, too many piranhas.

Your main problem though, is that you're not bringing enough firepower due to the three piranhas.
Against horde/swarm armies, you'll get overrun.
Against MEQ armies, you won't force enough saves to kill a full unit of charging assault squads. Nor do you have enough MEQ weapons to compensate for your lack of small arms fire. It will only take one assault marine crashing into a firewarrior unit, and that unit will be in serious trouble...yeah, we suck that much at close combat.
Against TEQ armies, you definitively wont't force enough saves or have enough TEQ weapons to reliably widdle them down. Those piranha meltas might take out two to three terminators and die in the process of doing so. All your firewarriors combined will probably take down only one or two terminators per turn at the best. Statistically, you'll miss half your shots, score 2/3 wounds out of the hits where he'll fail one or two from the seven wounds that got through. If there is feel no pain schenanigans, you'll be in even more trouble.

-hakunamatartin

P.S. I know I'm ignoring the math-hammer rule, but I I think math-hammer is useful when checking out bad odds, like in this case.
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Re: Rust's Newbie Tau Question Thread

Post by Rust » Mon Sep 24, 2012 6:04 pm

Alright, since "Scoot and Shoot" isn't working, let's try a "Boomstick" list instead.

=HQ=
Shas'el
-Hardwired Blacksun Filter
-Hardwired Multi-tracker
-Plasma Rifle
-Missile Pod
-Targeting Array

Bodyguard
Shas'vre
-Hardwired Blacksun Filter
- Hardwired Multi-tracker
- Plasma Rifle x2
- Missile Pod


=Troops=

Fire Warrior Team
- 9 Members
- Shas'ui
- Bonding Knife
- Hardwired Blacksun Filter

Fire Warrior Team
- 9 Members
- Shas'ui
- Bonding Knife
- Hardwired Blacksun Filter

Fire Warrior Team
- 9 Members
- Shas'ui
- Bonding Knife
- Hardwired Blacksun Filter

= Elite =

XV8 Crisis Battlesuit
- Shas'ui
- Blacksun Filter
- Plasma Rifle
- Missile Pod

XV8 Crisis Battlesuit
- Shas'ui
- Multi-Tracker
- Fusion Blaster
- Flamer

XV8 Crisis Battlesuit
- Shas'ui
- Multi-Tracker
- Fusion Blaster
- Flamer


That tally racks me in at 656 points. The two FB/Flamer Battlesuits would start the game out in Reserve to be used in a Deep Strike - ideally against a heavily fortified column of armor and/or troops. If the opponent spreads out his armor and troops in response to having two "Ruiners" (My own term) in reserve, then ideally the other three Crisis Suits - my Commander, his Bodyguard, and the other Suit - would be poised to start picking them off with Missile Pods.

Now that still leaves me with 94 points left over. Now I need something that can get into position fast to enable a Deep Strike onto a column enough that it would be worth it. A Pirahna or Devilfish would be chewed to pieces in that regard. I could opt for a 7 man Gun Drone Squad, or a five man Stingwing Squad (I know. I know. Stingwings suck. But a Toughness of 4 is better then a Gun Drone Squad and not a death sentence like sending in a lone Vehicle). Oooor I could invest 80 points in a Sniper Drone Squad to use their Rail Rifles against the Armor that decides to spread out in response to the Ruiners - but that leaves the Ruiners all dressed up with nowhere to go.

And yeah, I run unorthodox strategies. I prefer to be off kilter and having fun with builds and strategies.
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Re: Rust's Newbie Tau Question Thread

Post by Jag » Tue Sep 25, 2012 4:20 am

Rust wrote:=HQ=
Shas'el
-Hardwired Blacksun Filter
-Hardwired Multi-tracker
-Plasma Rifle
-Missile Pod
-Targeting Array
put some shield drone(s) on him to help survive more stuffs.

Bodyguard
Shas'vre
-Hardwired Blacksun Filter
- Hardwired Multi-tracker
- Plasma Rifle x2
- Missile Pod
the body guard is not worth it at this point level and even if you take it dont give them blacksun filters. you only need 1 in the team for the bonus it should only be on the commander. you might also find a targeting array better than the second plasma rifle cause it will boost both the plasma rifle AND the missile pod rather than just 1.

=Troops=

Fire Warrior Team
- 9 Members
- Shas'ui
- Bonding Knife
- Hardwired Blacksun Filter

Fire Warrior Team
- 9 Members
- Shas'ui
- Bonding Knife
- Hardwired Blacksun Filter

Fire Warrior Team
- 9 Members
- Shas'ui
- Bonding Knife
- Hardwired Blacksun Filter

= Elite =

XV8 Crisis Battlesuit
- Shas'ui
- Blacksun Filter
- Plasma Rifle
- Missile Pod
if you are going to put the blacksun filter on him you should make him a team lead and give him a multitracker too so he can fire both weapons, BUT i would say just make a full team of them all have plasma rifle, missile pod, and multitracker and put your hg in this squad to give it the blacksun filter

XV8 Crisis Battlesuit
- Shas'ui
- Multi-Tracker
- Fusion Blaster
- Flamer
not really gonna earn his points since at 750 points you may not even have 1 vehicle in your opponents list and the point blank requirement makes him too easy to assault. not to mention any unit you use a fusion blaster on you wouldnt use the flamer on.

just drop this guy all together and make your second elite choice a full battlesuit team with plasma rifle, missile pod and multitracker, including a team lead who has black sun filter and shield drone(s)


XV8 Crisis Battlesuit
- Shas'ui
- Multi-Tracker
- Fusion Blaster
- Flamer
just drop this one
beyond what i said above, i would consider adding a broadside or 2 as you can fit them with targetting arrays and a team lead with a blacksun filter and shield drone(s). you could always drop some fire warriors out of the squads to help get some more points for these changes.
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Re: Rust's Newbie Tau Question Thread

Post by Rust » Thu Sep 27, 2012 8:34 pm

Third time's a charm, I suppose.

=HQ=

Shas'el
- Hard-wired Blacksun filter
- Hard-wired multi-tracker
- Hard-wired Drone Controller
- Shield Drone x2
- Plasma Rifle
- Missile Pod
- Targeting Array

= Elite =

XV8 Crisis Battlesuit Team
- Shas'ui
- Shas'ui
- Shas'ui
- Plasma Rifle x3
- Missile Pod x3
- Multi-Tracker

= Troops =

Fire Warrior Team
- 9 Members
- Shas'ui
- Bonding Knife
- Hardwired Blacksun Filter

Fire Warrior Team
- 9 Members
- Shas'ui
- Bonding Knife
- Hardwired Blacksun Filter

= Heavy Support =

XV88 Broadside Battlesuit Team
- Shas'vre
- Hard-wired Blacksun Filter
- Hard-wired Multi-tracker
- Hard-wired target lock
- Hard-wired Drone Controller
- Advanced Stabilisation System
- Twin-linked Plasma Rifle
- Shield Drone
- Shas'ui
- Advanced Stabilisation System
- Twin-Linked Plasma Rifle


And that's makes 745.

Not overly happy with this list though. This is a far cry from the Fast and Pokey Ranged Army I wanted and has turned into a Iron Man/Gundam Convention. I'm probably going to sit down and re-evaluate my choices - maybe ramp up the fire teams, replace the Crisis Suits and Broadsides with Piranhas. Or maybe I should shift my flag to a more rapid-n-pokey army with some Tau allies.

All I know is I want to play with Speed and Guile, but without necessarily getting bogged down in the CC.

At the same time, this list would make for an insanely difficult to kill army at this point bracket. Which is probably what I need, seeing as how I'm a total newbie to the tabletop game.
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Re: Rust's Newbie Tau Question Thread

Post by hakunamatartin » Fri Sep 28, 2012 1:50 pm

Rust wrote:Not overly happy with this list though. This is a far cry from the Fast and Pokey Ranged Army I wanted and has turned into a Iron Man/Gundam Convention. I'm probably going to sit down and re-evaluate my choices - maybe ramp up the fire teams, replace the Crisis Suits and Broadsides with Piranhas. Or maybe I should shift my flag to a more rapid-n-pokey army with some Tau allies.


If this is really how you feel, then asking for our opinions might be a bit...pointless. Tell you what, why don't you try all three lists (use proxys if you don't own the models) and see what works or fits your playstyle the best?
Rust wrote:All I know is I want to play with Speed and Guile, but without necessarily getting bogged down in the CC.
While the Tau fluffwise fits this description, I personally think Eldar and Dark Eldar are better at performing these actions on the table-top game at the moment.

That being said, your third list has the most orthodox unit composition when it comes to playing Tau, though I don't get why your broadside team has an overly upgraded shas'vre (58 points worth of upgrades!). Personally, I think the A.S.S. is a waste if you're putting the plasmas on the broadsides, as they actually are relentless with rapid fire weapons (Tau codex, bottom of p. 27).
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Re: Rust's Newbie Tau Question Thread

Post by Rust » Fri Sep 28, 2012 5:04 pm

hakunamatartin wrote: That being said, your third list has the most orthodox unit composition when it comes to playing Tau, though I don't get why your broadside team has an overly upgraded shas'vre (58 points worth of upgrades!).
Points to burn, to be honest. More of "I can" then "I must".

I suppose I could easily just strip off the upgrades and reinforce my Fire Warrior Teams instead. Though I do have to ask in all honesty: How do Shield Drones work? In reading both the codex and the rule book, I can't get a straight answer if that +4 Invun Save applies to the Drone or the Model/Team the Drone is attached to.

Because I do like the idea of a Shield Drone guarding my Broadsides.

As for my little rant up there - yesterday was a bad day and I was in a foul mood. I thought putting together a new list would cheer me up. It didn't. Ignore the frump.
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Re: Rust's Newbie Tau Question Thread

Post by hakunamatartin » Fri Sep 28, 2012 8:14 pm

Rust wrote:I suppose I could easily just strip off the upgrades and reinforce my Fire Warrior Teams instead. Though I do have to ask in all honesty: How do Shield Drones work? In reading both the codex and the rule book, I can't get a straight answer if that +4 Invun Save applies to the Drone or the Model/Team the Drone is attached to.

Because I do like the idea of a Shield Drone guarding my Broadsides.

As for my little rant up there - yesterday was a bad day and I was in a foul mood. I thought putting together a new list would cheer me up. It didn't. Ignore the frump.
Shield drones are awesome, and I wouldn't discourage one drone per broadside. They get their controller's toughness and armour save, in addition to a 4+ invul.
With the new wound allocation rules, it's not enough to just have him in the unit. You put him in the very front, and in the direction where you are expecting S8+ AP2- shots to come from. That way he will most definitely earn his points back by absorbing nasty shots meant to outright kill your broadsides. Think of it as a safeguard from instant death.
Personally, I hardly ever use shield drones as I prefer more firepower over defensive upgrades. However, the risk of losing my broadsides in the first turn has definitily been real with failed cover saves, which makes me curse myself for not bringing them on occasions. Still, I myself am usually willing to take that risk if it means three more firewarriors or an extra deathrain suit by scrounging elsewhere as well. Others do not.

Edit P.S. Don't worry about being moody. I've been there and unleashed my scorn here as well :oops:
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Re: Rust's Newbie Tau Question Thread

Post by Rust » Fri Sep 28, 2012 9:01 pm

Ahhh. Now I get the Shield Drones! So is two overkill on my HQ? Also, can I reposition the Drones depending on where my units are in relation to the enemy forces? Basically: Can I rotate them around the model/team as needed?

And in all honesty, I don't think "Shoot and Scoot" would work for me really. Yeah it'd be fun, but you know what else is fun? The fact my Deathrains and HQ can Thrust around in the Assault Phase. Leading an enemy on a merry chase while my Broadsides blow them straight to hell. :D
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