Recon squad

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Jeffers
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Recon squad

Post by Jeffers » Tue May 15, 2018 4:28 pm

Just looked on forgeworld website and noticed standard marines with sniper rifles called recon squad.

Since chaos have no access to them in the main codex i went to battlescribe and can see them listed anywhere.

Are they just 30k units? Any rules and points be great as my friend is keen for me to use them if i want to since standard marines can have scouts with sniper rifles

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Re: Recon squad

Post by Koonitz » Tue May 15, 2018 6:30 pm

They are, indeed, only a 30k unit. A recon squad is a Troops choice support squad (meaning they are a troops selection, but cannot be one of your compulsory troops selections). The recon squad may either have power armour, as per the models you saw, or carapace armour (thus granting them scout and infiltrate). There is also an HQ called a "Vigilator Consul" which is basically an HQ Recon character.

The Raven Guard Legion also have a unique version of a recon squad, if I recall (as do the Thousand Sons, though the Thousand Sons specifically have carapace armour).

There are no legitimate points values for using these models in 40k, as the rules for 30k are still per the 7th Edition rules set, which may throw off the values of these models for 40k 8th. However, there is a fan project to give 8th ed rules to the 30k Legions, which might give you a better rules-set and give you something you can use with you friend to allow you to use these models.

I shared a link to the fan project in the Horus Heresy section of the forum, here.
Armies:
40k: Knights Cynosure Iron Hands successor chapter, House Terryn Questor Imperialis, Thousand Sons/Tzeentch Daemons
30k: Thousand Sons
Age of Sigmar: Sylvaneth, Disciples of Tzeentch

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Marit Lage
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Re: Recon squad

Post by Marit Lage » Tue May 15, 2018 11:27 pm

Chaos Space Marines version of Scouts would be Chosen. They're forward operatives that operate outside of the battlefield, scouting the juiciest target for plunder.
Chaos Space Marine Tactica (old)
Models painted in 2018:
2 Exalted Champion
Dark Apostle
Abaddon
7 Raptors
2 Chaos Bikers
5 Chaos Terminators
4 Custodians

Jeffers
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Re: Recon squad

Post by Jeffers » Wed May 16, 2018 6:05 am

Many thanks for this. I really dont understand how:-

During heresy the traitors lost half the weapons and vehicles that are in current use in 40k

Not raided places and reclaim weapons and vehicles from the fighting over 10,000 years

The dark mechcanicium have had a brain fart for 10,000 years and forgot how to make or reverse engineering

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Re: Recon squad

Post by Marit Lage » Wed May 16, 2018 7:09 am

Jeffers wrote:
Wed May 16, 2018 6:05 am
Many thanks for this. I really dont understand how:-

During heresy the traitors lost half the weapons and vehicles that are in current use in 40k

Not raided places and reclaim weapons and vehicles from the fighting over 10,000 years

The dark mechcanicium have had a brain fart for 10,000 years and forgot how to make or reverse engineering
In a word, maintainence. Chaos Space Marines don't have the resources or time to spend to maintain their weapons. Their choices of heavy weapons on Terminators showcases thus very well.

Reaper autocannon vs. Assault cannon: the assault cannon is prone to jamming, and requires additional maintainence to keep it from jamming frequently. The reaper by contrast, is a workhorse with a lower rate of fire, but rarely jams.

The same can be said of gravitic weaponry and plasma cannons. Plasma guns and pistols are easy to come across on the battlefield and in armories. Meltaguns fall into that category.

Whirlwind tanks require specialized, specific ammunition.

Hover vehicles require boatloads of maintainence, and are delicate machines.

Land Raider variants either require specific equipment (Redeemer), or expend large quantities of ammunition (Crusader).

In the Eye of Terror, resources are everything. You can't expend them carelessly on fancy toys, when the old fashioned way of boots on the ground gets the job done at the expense of lives (which they have an abundance, between their constant recruitment or slaves to send at the enemy).

Not to say that the Dark Mechanicum hasn't had it's hands full, between the creation of the Obliterator Virus, maintaining the Daemon Titans, and the creation and manufacture of a variety of daemon engines.
Chaos Space Marine Tactica (old)
Models painted in 2018:
2 Exalted Champion
Dark Apostle
Abaddon
7 Raptors
2 Chaos Bikers
5 Chaos Terminators
4 Custodians

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Re: Recon squad

Post by Koonitz » Wed May 16, 2018 10:51 am

That and GW simply wants the Chaos army to feel distinct and uniquely different. Since playing Loyalists and starting to play a Traitor army in fielding my 30k Thousand Sons as a 40k force, I've noticed a very interesting contrast in functionality.

A loyalist Space Marine force is generally a straight forward force, with a balance of assault and defense. Chaos units, however, tend to be almost exclusively balanced around assault, and aggressively so. They have a higher number of weapons that focus on short to mid-ranged, or straight up assault, and they lack certain defensive options (ie: Storm Shields). This is excessively abundant when you compare Forge World units, of which my Thousand Sons utilize.

The 8th Edition Sicaran Venator and Relic/Hellforged Predator are two fantastic examples.

The Loyalist Sicaran Venator is armed with a Neutron Beam Laser, which is a 48" ranged weapon, with 3 S12/AP-4 shots that do lascannon damage. If any vehicle takes damage from this weapon, they suffer -1 to hit in the following shooting phase. The vehicle is also a stable platform, suffering no penalty for moving and firing heavy weapons.

The Hellforged Sicaran Venator replaces the Neutron Beam Laser with a Malignatus Beam Laser. 36" range, 1 shot, wounds by rolling 3d6 VS Ld of target, AP-5, for 2d6 damage. It does not cause the target to suffer -1 to hit. The vehicle is also NOT a stable platform. However, it does have the equivalent of a power weapon, and its WS gets better as it takes damage (though it still loses attacks). It can also heal itself by removing models in melee, however CANNOT heal itself through ANY other means, including a warpsmith (thanks to the FAQ).

Both have a heavy bolter, and options for sponson heavy bolters/lascannon.

In contrast, the Chaos version is shorter ranged. It also wants to be in melee to maximize its potential. However, it needs to move to be in melee, which it cannot do without penalty. The loyalist one has longer range and can move freely, which means it can maneuver as it needs to gain an advantageous firing position or retreat from enemy advances. Since the tank is considered a fast vehicle (14" move), the ability to move and fire is very valuable. In addition, the -1 to hit can cripple targets that aren't destroyed by the weapon.

To me, the loyalist version functions how the 30k/7th Ed tank functioned, and was the reason I purchased two of them. The Chaos version, while fun, is pretty much nothing better than a Predator or Land Raider in offensive functionality, which has to constantly contrast standing still for effective firepower, or moving forward to get in range, and/or to engage in melee and try to heal itself. This dual, contrasting purpose frustrates me greatly.

As you can see from the example, there is a design philosophy difference in the way GW wants the armies to function, which is also seen in the number of Marine units that are NOT available to Chaos. What this means, to me, is that if you want to play Chaos and have all of the same toys as the Imperium, then just play your Chaos army using the Loyalist Space Marine army list. Something I've been saying through multiple editions.

I have a friend that has been playing Chaos for ages, and he constantly b****ed about not having pretty much everything my loyalist force had (basically, he wanted to play loyalist marines with all the extra Chaos cherries, too). It was his constant complaining that made me start to realize the reasoning WHY the two armies were different, and made me lose sympathy for Chaos players whom had no reasonable argument beyond "but I want them, too!"
Armies:
40k: Knights Cynosure Iron Hands successor chapter, House Terryn Questor Imperialis, Thousand Sons/Tzeentch Daemons
30k: Thousand Sons
Age of Sigmar: Sylvaneth, Disciples of Tzeentch

Jeffers
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Re: Recon squad

Post by Jeffers » Wed May 16, 2018 1:43 pm

Hey i accept that they want two different armies and i accept they wont have certain items like landspeeders due to the tech involve.

I play nightlords without daemons and i keep them truly fluffy without all the marks as well.

All i was talking about was generic wargear. Im not moaning to not having all the toys as you suggested

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Re: Recon squad

Post by Koonitz » Wed May 16, 2018 2:46 pm

Jeffers wrote:
Wed May 16, 2018 1:43 pm
Hey i accept that they want two different armies and i accept they wont have certain items like landspeeders due to the tech involve.

I play nightlords without daemons and i keep them truly fluffy without all the marks as well.

All i was talking about was generic wargear. Im not moaning to not having all the toys as you suggested
I apologize. To clarify, I didn't mean you were doing that.
Armies:
40k: Knights Cynosure Iron Hands successor chapter, House Terryn Questor Imperialis, Thousand Sons/Tzeentch Daemons
30k: Thousand Sons
Age of Sigmar: Sylvaneth, Disciples of Tzeentch

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Marit Lage
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Re: Recon squad

Post by Marit Lage » Wed May 16, 2018 2:51 pm

Jeffers wrote:
Wed May 16, 2018 1:43 pm

All i was talking about was generic wargear. Im not moaning to not having all the toys as you suggested
What exactly do you consider "generic?"
Chaos Space Marine Tactica (old)
Models painted in 2018:
2 Exalted Champion
Dark Apostle
Abaddon
7 Raptors
2 Chaos Bikers
5 Chaos Terminators
4 Custodians

Salamand3rs4Lyfe
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Re: Recon squad

Post by Salamand3rs4Lyfe » Wed May 16, 2018 4:04 pm

I would personally consider thunder hammers and storm shields generic. I don't really believe that chaos marines would have the resources to maintain power weapons if even barely yet wouldn't be able to upkeep thunder hammers and storm shields
Armies i collect:
11,115pts csm The Privileged
7,268pts Salamanders
1,200pts gsc Sons of Jormangandr

Jeffers
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Re: Recon squad

Post by Jeffers » Wed May 16, 2018 4:21 pm

No worries Koonitz

Generic marine weapons:-

Bolters of all types (pistol/heavy/boltgun)
Missile launchers
Shotguns
Bolt action rifles
Bladed weapons.

I would say these were the bread and butter for a typical marine and not overly complex pieces of gear and low maintenace

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Marit Lage
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Re: Recon squad

Post by Marit Lage » Wed May 16, 2018 5:45 pm

Chaos uses all of those already, sans snipers rifles, likely due to how Chaos Space Marines fight. They don't really have a use for them, since they typically want to experience their enemy's death firsthand.
Chaos Space Marine Tactica (old)
Models painted in 2018:
2 Exalted Champion
Dark Apostle
Abaddon
7 Raptors
2 Chaos Bikers
5 Chaos Terminators
4 Custodians

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