Loyalist recently turned traitor needs help

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Angelus619
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Loyalist recently turned traitor needs help

Post by Angelus619 » Thu Aug 24, 2017 3:06 pm

The things i need help on is tactics and conversions. Anything will help.

I have an Ultramarine army and now I hate the Imperium due to the introduction to Primaris marines. So now my "Narrative" army has turned their backs on Guilliman and the Imperium. Now what is the best way to convert? What are my options? Also some solid conversion ideas would be sweet.
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Re: Loyalist recently turned traitor needs help

Post by Koonitz » Thu Aug 24, 2017 3:20 pm

In a lot of cases, there really isn't much conversion required, to be honest. For instance, if you want to take a Tactical marine and use him as a Chaos marine, I'd just use him as is, perhaps with a bit of scratching over Imperial symbols (and some chaosy symbols painted over). This way, you have what is clearly a recently turned traitor Marine who is still using his armour as he attempts to remove the symbols of the shackles he just threw off.

This can work in a lot of cases. Vehicles? Tear off those Imperial symbols and replace them with chaosy ones or ones of your own choice (if you want unique symbols of your newfound 'freedom'). The Chaos codex even has 'Legion' rules for renegade Marine warbands which would work fantastic for your lore. Or, you could even continue to use the Space Marine codex, allowing you to continue to use the models that you may still like but don't want to give up to play Chaos (ie: Razorbacks, variant Land Raiders, Centurions, et cetera).
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Re: Loyalist recently turned traitor needs help

Post by Kovlovsky » Thu Aug 24, 2017 4:02 pm

Back in the 3.5 edition codex, I remember they just had introduced Huron Blackheart and his Red Corsairs who were made of defectors. It was the first deck showing paint scheme and some backstory for renegade Space Marines Chapters (the first 3rd ed codex spoke only about the original traitor legions). As an example, they shown Space Wolves defectors that joined the Red Corsairs and the only thing they had really was a big red X on the Space Wolves markings. I'm not saying you should do that because it's not terribly good looking, but just scratching the original markings or painting over it would do if they recently gone renegade. The parts of the traitor legions who remained loyal during the Battle of Istvaan III actually scratched their legion markings and painted over them to show they no longer belonged to legions that had abandonned Mankind. You could do that too. You could also add some 8 legged crosses here and there too.

A lot of renegade chapters still wear rather straight power armor at first and only start to customise themselves as either the corruption starts to take hold if they become affiliated with the dark gods (some renegade rejects the Imperium without embracing Chaos BTW). So, keeping them relatively unmodified is fine if you don't want to start adding chaos bits everywhere. If you're willing to do it, I can point you toward some nice Ebay bits stores. You could also add new paint over your Ultramarine blue like dancing flames on the lower part of their legs or something cool like that.

As for vehicles, I believe you can grab Chaos upgrade sprues on the GW website or find a bit seller on Ebay that has them. You can add trophy racks, chaotic insignas or dragon maws on your weapons to make them look more chaosy. I would also suggest weathering them if it's not already done to show the drop in discipline and show that their vehicles are not maintained to remain pretty, but only functional.
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Re: Loyalist recently turned traitor needs help

Post by Angelus619 » Thu Aug 24, 2017 4:47 pm

Thank you so much for the feedback and support guys, it means a lot.

So for the "renegade chapters" i'm curious where in the codex does it have info on it?

Is it okay for me to still use devastator squads and very specific loyalist units as a Chaos player?

I'd really like to keep and use everything I got but just convert the look and use some additional chaos units. Can I even use mix units? is it okay or abusive?

That is where I am stumped. Also any links to fair bits sellers would be phenomenal.
EX-ULTRAMARINE COMMANDER TURNED CHAOS LORD
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Re: Loyalist recently turned traitor needs help

Post by mmsolo » Thu Aug 24, 2017 4:57 pm

Narritivly speaking some good ideas... but unless you are a realy realygood painter it can look like just a bad painjob. It's not easy ton paint actual paint.

Maybe as kovlovsky says without changing anything you can just add colors to you sheme. Dakers one or/and metal , on the shoulders / knees / backpack some places visible and accessible. If you add enough even if you keep the ultra blue ( maybe all of thoses 3 ideas ) the overall look of the model will change.

If there is only flat ultra iconography you can easyely paint over to change it as explain above but if it's some three dimentional icones without sanding cutting or else so needing reprime it's quite hard.

Some chipping effect can be nice, to see that it's not your paintjob but theirs. I'm sure there is plenty of vids / tuto to do it if you look expecialy at vehicules painting tutorials.

Could be nice if you show some pictures of what you have or what your are going to have once finished :)

Anyways have fun, nice project , keep hating primaris ! SMC have realy nice rules, but you will have to start doing more close combat than a ultra army tu use thoses rules.

You have this little part, and maybe some more in the actual codex that i don't have :
https://www.warhammer-community.com/201 ... ge-post-2/

About bitses, it depend where you leave. I'm in france and i know some ebay sellers here in france and a site based in germany realy fast to deliver, so if you need, just ask.

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Re: Loyalist recently turned traitor needs help

Post by Kovlovsky » Thu Aug 24, 2017 7:41 pm

Angelus619 wrote:
Thu Aug 24, 2017 4:47 pm
Thank you so much for the feedback and support guys, it means a lot.

So for the "renegade chapters" i'm curious where in the codex does it have info on it?
I don't have the codex yet since I'm still divided between buying it or not bothering and just going for the Thousand Sons one, but I know for sure from the previews that there are specific rules for renegade chapters and these are actual pretty great.

Angelus619 wrote:
Thu Aug 24, 2017 4:47 pm
Is it okay for me to still use devastator squads and very specific loyalist units as a Chaos player?
Remember that for being in the same detachment, your units need to share a keyword. Loyalist units don't have the Chaos, Heretic Astartes, etc keywords, so you would have to field them in a separate detachment. I'm not updated on how fielding armies from antagonist factions together works on the battlefield this edition, so I'm not sure if there are still the old restrictions from Come the Apocalypse factions. Personally, for Devastators, I would proxy them as Havocs and possibly start changing or converting the weapons that don't exist in the Chaos codex so that they use the right weapons. Using them as they are with the loyalist perks isn't right if you want to use the Chaos codex for obvious reasons.

However, you could also chose to continue to use the loyalist Space Marines codex and say that your guys are now renegade as a narrative thing. But that also means that you won't be able to use the Chaos flavour. So make your choice, but I don't support making an hybrid army that will probably be illegal and that you might have trouble getting games with.
I'd really like to keep and use everything I got but just convert the look and use some additional chaos units. Can I even use mix units? is it okay or abusive?
You can always convert your guys so that they feel more chaosy and then using the rules for the closest Chaos equivalent for them. By example, you could make your Centurion Devastators look more chaosy and then use them with the rules for Obliterators. But playing a Chaos Space Marines army and then use loyalist units in it with the loyalist rules isn't something I support and I'm pretty sure that most people would object to it.
That is where I am stumped. Also any links to fair bits sellers would be phenomenal.
My favorite US bits seller is Bits World on Ebay: http://stores.ebay.com/Bits-World?_trks ... 7675.l2563. They're very professional, have a large selection of bits both in auctions and "buy it now", ship quickly and have very good customer service. Their price are usually right too.

My second favorite is Blackdagger Games again in the US http://stores.ebay.com/Blackdagger-Game ... 7675.l2563. They have a good selection, sometimes having precise things I couldn't find elsewhere (like a specific Bloodletter sword I had trouble finding elsewhere), but the price are somewhat higher. So, I usually use this store when I need to complete my purchases with a precise bit and I don't find it or can't get it on Bits World. The shipping is also fast. I never had to speak to their customer support, so I don't know about it, but they are highly rated too.
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Re: Loyalist recently turned traitor needs help

Post by Koonitz » Thu Aug 24, 2017 10:12 pm

Kovlovsky wrote:
Thu Aug 24, 2017 7:41 pm
Angelus619 wrote:
Thu Aug 24, 2017 4:47 pm
Is it okay for me to still use devastator squads and very specific loyalist units as a Chaos player?
Remember that for being in the same detachment, your units need to share a keyword. Loyalist units don't have the Chaos, Heretic Astartes, etc keywords, so you would have to field them in a separate detachment. I'm not updated on how fielding armies from antagonist factions together works on the battlefield this edition, so I'm not sure if there are still the old restrictions from Come the Apocalypse factions. Personally, for Devastators, I would proxy them as Havocs and possibly start changing or converting the weapons that don't exist in the Chaos codex so that they use the right weapons. Using them as they are with the loyalist perks isn't right if you want to use the Chaos codex for obvious reasons.

However, you could also chose to continue to use the loyalist Space Marines codex and say that your guys are now renegade as a narrative thing. But that also means that you won't be able to use the Chaos flavour. So make your choice, but I don't support making an hybrid army that will probably be illegal and that you might have trouble getting games with.
Your statement on faction keywords is incorrect. In Narrative and Open play, you are free to do whatever you and your opponent agree to, to fit your chosen story-line. There are literally zero restrictions. However, the moment you do add units that do not share faction keywords, you are no longer playing with a battleforged army and gain zero command points (not even the 3 free ones for being battleforged).

However, most players will be playing Matched Play in terms of armies and army list creation. In Matched Play, ALL units across ALL detachments must share at least ONE keyword across all units. As such, you cannot mix and match from both loyalist and heretic factions, regardless how many detachments you split them up into. You will have to choose. You cannot have the best of both worlds.

The only time faction keywords matter within a single detachment is with faction special rules, such as Chapter Tactics and Legion rules (which require the single detachment to share the same <Chapter> or <Legion> keyword, such as Iron Hands or Black Legion).

You will have to make the choice of how you wish to play them.

- Use Codex: Space Marines and keep all the toys you are used to, but simply paint them up and act as if they were a renegade chapter. You would not gain access to any Chaos specific units or rules.
- Use Codex: Chaos Space Marines, give up any and all toys that are part of Codex: Space Marines (this includes tactical squad organization and combat squadding, by the way), but gain access to the full panoply of chaotic toys.

Note as well, if you choose to use Codex: Space Marines, you do NOT gain any chaos faction keywords, such as <Chaos>, <Mark of Chaos>, et cetera. As such, you CANNOT ALLY IN ANY CHAOS FACTIONS! Even if you call yourself a renegade, you cannot ally in daemons. You retain all faction keywords. As such, you retain access to all Imperial factions as allies. So you could bring in a regiment of Imperial Guard and call them 'renegade' guardsmen as well, even though you are technically playing as a 'loyalist faction and army using loyalist faction keywords'.
Kovlovsky wrote:
Thu Aug 24, 2017 7:41 pm
Angelus619 wrote:
Thu Aug 24, 2017 4:47 pm
I'd really like to keep and use everything I got but just convert the look and use some additional chaos units. Can I even use mix units? is it okay or abusive?
You can always convert your guys so that they feel more chaosy and then using the rules for the closest Chaos equivalent for them. By example, you could make your Centurion Devastators look more chaosy and then use them with the rules for Obliterators. But playing a Chaos Space Marines army and then use loyalist units in it with the loyalist rules isn't something I support and I'm pretty sure that most people would object to it.
As I said, above, you cannot mix and match units in Matched Play. You will have to use Open or Narrative play rules and agree to these with your opponent. Kov's suggestion of being creative with "counts as" will be your best bet if you wish to switch fully to Chaos, including using Chaos rules.
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Re: Loyalist recently turned traitor needs help

Post by Marit Lage » Thu Aug 24, 2017 10:54 pm

Remember that you can play Renegades and Heretics instead of Imperial Guard for us Chaos players.
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Re: Loyalist recently turned traitor needs help

Post by Kovlovsky » Fri Aug 25, 2017 1:36 am

Almost nobody plays in narrative play with people they don't know and I don't know a lot of people who plays narrative anyway, that's why I didn't bother with it. You see, if you build an army hoping that people will accept to let you play an hybrid army that is illegal in matched play, especially an unbound army, you might have problems getting a game outside very close friends. That and the fact that I intensely dislike when people try to take what suit them in armies that shouldn't want to fight together while dropping what they don't like, makes me pretty hostile to making an hybrid army half CSM and half Space Marines. That's why I'm advicing him to make a choice.
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Re: Loyalist recently turned traitor needs help

Post by Angelus619 » Fri Aug 25, 2017 3:22 am

I'm not stressing about getting games because I have plenty of Narrative friends to play custom games with no problem, also a few groups to play matched play.

But I am more curious of the "Renegade" rules and abilities in the coming codex so I can see my future conversion options. Mainly i'm using 7th edition codex's for both factions just to see what they both share in common so I can see what I can field "chaos legal". (I still play 7th mostly but may move to 8th slowly)

So other than the obvious choose one or the other method, Generally I am moving forward to collecting more chaos and repainting my entire army so I can swing both ways legally (of coarse with illegal units sitting out) for matched play. Also I have no idea how chaos space marines/KDK works so I don't even know where to start.
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Re: Loyalist recently turned traitor needs help

Post by blippityblip » Wed Aug 30, 2017 2:13 pm

If you want to change your army from a space marine army to a chaos space marine army most of its fairly easy, for instance devastator squads can be used as Havocs, they have mostly the same options you'll just need to change any grav cannons you have to something chaos can use, captains can be chaos lords, little conversion work and centurions can be obliterators or mutilators, assault marines can have their jump packs removed and used as either normal chaos marines with pistol and chainsword, or bezerkers or you can use them as raptors. Dreads can be used as helbrutes, again you may need to look at changing some weapons, sternguard can be used as chosen, so yeah a lot or units can just be moved across, there are some that can't, landspeeders, some of the land raiders, razorbacks, the fliers, drop pods, scouts and whirlwinds, things like the razorbacks and whirlwinds you can take the top weapons off and use as rhinos, the rest id probably put on eBay if your serious about switching to chaos.

I've thought about using imperial stuff as chaos before, personally I think space wolves could make great looking bezerkers.

Conversion work can be easy, if it was me I'd buy a single pack of chaos marines and then spread the pieces out over all my marines, taking a shoulder pad off guys or a bolter here and there, using arms on sergeants and then using the bodies and legs and loyalist parts to make more marines that I would then spread out into the squads, this would give the effect that the marines are newly turned but are succumbed to chaos, the possessed box also has quite a few bits that can make a captain look rather chaosy too, lastly too make them look newly turned I'd probably not use cultists, instead I'd use guardsmen with their imperial icons defiled, give them a truly just turned look
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