Questions on Thousand Sons Artefacts rules: Seer's Bane and the Astral Grimoire

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Kovlovsky
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Questions on Thousand Sons Artefacts rules: Seer's Bane and the Astral Grimoire

Post by Kovlovsky » Mon Apr 24, 2017 1:03 pm

Hey guys! Normally, I'm the one who answers questions on Thousand Sons, but this time, I need your help. ;) It's been since the release that I'm not sure how they work really and it can have quite a bit of consequences on the board or in list building depending on how they work. Unfortunately, there is nothing about them in the FAQs on GW's website.

- The Seer's Bane is a Strength: User, AP2 Daemon Weapon with Force and the Bane of Wisdom special rule which has the following definition.
Bane of Wisdom wrote:Against non-vehicle, the Strength value of the Seer's Bane is equal to the bearer's Leadership characteristic, and all to Wound rolls are made against the target's Leadership characteristic instead of their Toughness. However, use the target's Toughness value as normal for determining whether or not the Seer's Bane inflicts Instant Death.
When you normally roll to wound against a unit, you normally use the unit's majority toughness value. So, do you roll against the majority Leadership in this case or do you follow the Leadership normal rules that is to always use the highest value unless another rule specify to do the contrary? Because it can make a big difference.

This weapon will usually be S10 because TS characters are Ld 10 because of VotLW, but if I'm attacking a Space Marines unit (Ld 8 ) that contains a Veteran Sergeant (Ld 9 ) and for a reason, I'm not in a challenge, do I wound on 2+ (the enemy unit majority Ld is 8 ) or 3+ because you always use the highest leadership in a unit?

- Astral Grimoire:
Astral Grimoire wrote:At the start of the movement phase, pick the bearer and a single friendly infantry unit withthin 12" of the bearer. For the duration of the phase, that unit has the Jump unit type.
If the bearer is an independent character attached to the unit that you target, do he receives the Jump unit type as well? An independent character part of a unit counts as his own unit and as part of the unit at the same time. And if there are more than one independent characters attached to the unit, do they gain Jump as well. That confuses me.

I've always played it so that, by example, if the bearer is attached to a Rubric Squad together with another Sorcerer attached to the same squad and that you target the Rubric squad, only the Rubric squad get the Jump unit type. So if you want to have them move 12 inches, you need to give Discs of Tzeentch, Bikes or Jump Packs to all the independent characters. But I wonder if that is the correct way of playing this artefact.

What do you think?
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Re: Questions on Thousand Sons Artefacts rules: Seer's Bane and the Astral Grimoire

Post by Koonitz » Mon Apr 24, 2017 1:41 pm

1) Seer's Bane - As the weapon still hits and wounds as normal, excepting the use of Ld values instead of T for the wounding, you would otherwise use all normal rules for wounding. In this case, majority 'toughness'. You are striking the unit, whose minds are not as strong as the unit's leader. When using highest leadership, it is because the model with the highest leadership is leading the squad, keeping their morale up, giving commands, et cetera. That doesn't make sense when a commander can order his guy to resist the sword harder.

2) Astral Grimoire - In every single case beyond this that I can recall, an IC is, in every way, part of a unit when he is attached to it (ie: If you cast a blessing that targets a unit, would not the IC gain the benefits of the blessing as well?). As such, the IC would gain the Jump infantry type so long as he remains part of the unit. If you wish to activate the grimoire, then have the IC leave the unit, he would immediately lose the Jump infantry type and have to walk as normal, jealous of his leaping, pirouetting dust-filled armour comrades.
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Re: Questions on Thousand Sons Artefacts rules: Seer's Bane and the Astral Grimoire

Post by Kovlovsky » Mon Apr 24, 2017 1:53 pm

First, thanks a lot for the quick reply!
Koonitz wrote:1) Seer's Bane - As the weapon still hits and wounds as normal, excepting the use of Ld values instead of T for the wounding, you would otherwise use all normal rules for wounding. In this case, majority 'toughness'. You are striking the unit, whose minds are not as strong as the unit's leader. When using highest leadership, it is because the model with the highest leadership is leading the squad, keeping their morale up, giving commands, et cetera. That doesn't make sense when a commander can order his guy to resist the sword harder.
Yes, it makes a lot of sense. That was what I was thinking, but I wanted to be 100% sure because I didn't want to exploit an ambiguity in the rules in my advantage without solid evidences. This make this weapon very dangerous indeed.
Koonitz wrote:2) Astral Grimoire - In every single case beyond this that I can recall, an IC is, in every way, part of a unit when he is attached to it (ie: If you cast a blessing that targets a unit, would not the IC gain the benefits of the blessing as well?). As such, the IC would gain the Jump infantry type so long as he remains part of the unit. If you wish to activate the grimoire, then have the IC leave the unit, he would immediately lose the Jump infantry type and have to walk as normal, jealous of his leaping, pirouetting dust-filled armour comrades.
Ah! That's good to know. That means I can save quite a few points in Discs of Tzeentch for the Exalted and normal Sorcerers attached to one unit. They're 30 pts a piece after all. Still, the Disc can be useful if you want to break away from the unit without sacrificing his own mobility.

And imagining rubric marines doing acrobatics made me laugh quite a bit hahaha! Thanks again.
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Re: Questions on Thousand Sons Artefacts rules: Seer's Bane and the Astral Grimoire

Post by Koonitz » Mon Apr 24, 2017 2:03 pm

Kovlovsky wrote:
Koonitz wrote:If you wish to activate the grimoire, then have the IC leave the unit, he would immediately lose the Jump infantry type and have to walk as normal, jealous of his leaping, pirouetting dust-filled armour comrades.
And imagining rubric marines doing acrobatics made me laugh quite a bit hahaha! Thanks again.
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Re: Questions on Thousand Sons Artefacts rules: Seer's Bane and the Astral Grimoire

Post by Kovlovsky » Tue Apr 25, 2017 10:52 am

Koonitz wrote:
Kovlovsky wrote:
Koonitz wrote:If you wish to activate the grimoire, then have the IC leave the unit, he would immediately lose the Jump infantry type and have to walk as normal, jealous of his leaping, pirouetting dust-filled armour comrades.
And imagining rubric marines doing acrobatics made me laugh quite a bit hahaha! Thanks again.
My single, greatest regret in life is that I have not the artistic talent to give life to that image.
Yeah, that would be amazing! Maybe it could be done as a conversion though.
Realgone wrote:Those two artefacts are awesome,

Since the new rule came for our legion I always use the Astral Grimoire along with my sorcerer lord in terminator armor with a unit of Scarab Occult. Jumping terminator are a lot of fun and kind of remove the need and randomness of Deep Striking.

As for Seer's Bane, been having good result with my Exalted Sorcerer on disk in a unit with Spawns. Especially if you happen to roll on biomancy and get warp speed. Ex.: Last game it happened exactly like that and I roll a 6 for the number of attack for the spawns and I had 5 of them. In the end it was 40 attack for the spawn on the charge and 11 for the Exalted Sorcerer. :)
Yes, these are two awesome artefacts! They fit well in our army since they help mitigate two weaknesses: a general lack of mobility and of relative lack of strong CC characters without using psychic powers that you may or may not roll. I love them. I didn't have much time to try them though since I only had a couple of low points games since the release. I don't have Spawns yet, but I should get some since I will probably "bless" some Dark Angels with spawnhood from time to time. :) The only problem is that the only way to field them in a Grand Coven is by bringing a Tzaangor Warherd and I'm not sure I want to buy a minimum of 165$ of Tzaangors just to field it just yet. Tzaangors are great models though.
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40k : 3945 points of Thousand Sons
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