40k newbie: 1st Army building (CD & CSM) and other questions :D

The ideal discussion board for all traitors, heretics, and the warp-spawned Daemons.
Locked
Skullthrone
MiniWarGaming Beginner
Posts: 11
Joined: Wed Mar 01, 2017 3:49 am

40k newbie: 1st Army building (CD & CSM) and other questions :D

Post by Skullthrone » Wed Mar 01, 2017 6:55 pm

Hello everyone :)

I accidentally posted this in the core 40k chat to I apologies if anyone thinks I am spamming.

Fair warning here I have only been looking into this for a few days, so please forgive what are probably painfully basic questions....

I am looking to build my first army, and I want them to look awesome but also be fun to play and competitive, I was thinking CD with CSM support for some extra Dakka, also I get the best of both worlds for games and models..
With all the choices I have from the 4 Chaos God Armies and also various factions of CSM (and all those codex) I have no idea where to start... I did borrow a CD Codex but felt a little more lost after reading it (still learning base 40k rules).

I have not made any investments in models or codex because of the amount of choice, I don't really want to invest in units I won't use at the beginning, so I held off buying a "Start Collecting" box even though they seem like great value.

To start with I would be looking at maybe a 1000pt bound army to do some skirmishes with friends and get the hang of the game, so I was wondering:

1) What would people recommend? Khorne models look especially cool (bloodthirster :twisted: ) but I also like the looks of Tzeentch and Nurgle. I have noticed a lot of tactics use fateweaver? I know people do not tend to use units from more then 2 CD armies together.

2) What CSM would you use for allied support?

3) What about Khorne Daemonkin? I know nothing about them, are they viable as allies?

4) I've not found anything in the Daemon codex talking about formations for Chaos Armies? Where can I find this info? (Codex or otherwise)

5) Finally (tons of stupid questions sorry) the guy in the store mentioned that a good way to use CD is to summon them, where can I read more about CD info such as this?

Many many thanks!!!
Last edited by Skullthrone on Thu Mar 02, 2017 5:42 am, edited 1 time in total.

Skullthrone
MiniWarGaming Beginner
Posts: 11
Joined: Wed Mar 01, 2017 3:49 am

Re: 40k newbie: 1st Army building (CD & CSM) and other questions :D

Post by Skullthrone » Thu Mar 02, 2017 5:41 am

Hi Zmyeevich,

Thanks for the really useful and insightful info! I guess I know the "roles" of the Chaos gods, having read the fluff, but it is good to know exactly what certain units excel at.

As for question 2 I actually meant CSM! Apologies for the typo :) (Will edit the original post).

Would really be interested in peoples thoughts on what CSM faction to use, and how they use them :D

Geradox
MiniWarGaming Veteran
Posts: 183
Joined: Fri Nov 20, 2015 3:31 pm
Contact:

Re: 40k newbie: 1st Army building (CD & CSM) and other questions :D

Post by Geradox » Thu Mar 02, 2017 9:01 am

Skullthrone wrote:Hello everyone :)

I accidentally posted this in the core 40k chat to I apologies if anyone thinks I am spamming.

Fair warning here I have only been looking into this for a few days, so please forgive what are probably painfully basic questions....

I am looking to build my first army, and I want them to look awesome but also be fun to play and competitive, I was thinking CD with CSM support for some extra Dakka, also I get the best of both worlds for games and models..
With all the choices I have from the 4 Chaos God Armies and also various factions of CSM (and all those codex) I have no idea where to start... I did borrow a CD Codex but felt a little more lost after reading it (still learning base 40k rules).

I have not made any investments in models or codex because of the amount of choice, I don't really want to invest in units I won't use at the beginning, so I held off buying a "Start Collecting" box even though they seem like great value.

To start with I would be looking at maybe a 1000pt bound army to do some skirmishes with friends and get the hang of the game, so I was wondering:

1) What would people recommend? Khorne models look especially cool (bloodthirster :twisted: ) but I also like the looks of Tzeentch and Nurgle. I have noticed a lot of tactics use fateweaver? I know people do not tend to use units from more then 2 CD armies together.

2) What CSM would you use for allied support?

3) What about Khorne Daemonkin? I know nothing about them, are they viable as allies?

4) I've not found anything in the Daemon codex talking about formations for Chaos Armies? Where can I find this info? (Codex or otherwise)

5) Finally (tons of stupid questions sorry) the guy in the store mentioned that a good way to use CD is to summon them, where can I read more about CD info such as this?

Many many thanks!!!
First welcome to the hobby.

Secondly your questions
1) play what you want. Pick a theme for your army and the more you play the more centralized your tactics will become. You might lose a lot at first trying to find a playstyle you want to do and stick to. But once you find it your tactics for said style and your list building skills with it will rise quickly (I used to lose every game and now I went 9 for 10 wins at my local game store)

2) even though I am a khorne player I would play either death guard or thousand sons as a support army death guard are just hard to kill. While tsons are hella survivable cause you can improve there invulnerable save easy like. (I like to use word bearers to summon in daemons though as a main force)

3)kdk is great. It lets you play both csm and khorne daemons. Things to note though csm don't get vets. The daemons are fearless and lose instability. And no kharn. You get to summon in daemons and turn a csm into a dp or by oh yay

4) as for formations for daemons it's either a cad or the daemon formations from war zone fenris and other supplements (sorry I don't have encyclopedic knowledge on all supplements and formations and where to find them.) But I know the kdk book has 1 or two khorne daemon only formations.

5)daemon summoning is pretty fun as they don't peril on any double other then 6's. And you can summon in more warp charges by summoning in pink horrors. Or a changer of ways. I dont summon via CD. As i use word bearers to summon more daemons.

But as a side note if you got more questions just ask we will always answer to the best of our knowledge. And I would normally start collecting by getting the dark vengeance box set (and kitbash the imperium units as "recently" fallen marines)
Chaos always, always chaos.

Geradox
MiniWarGaming Veteran
Posts: 183
Joined: Fri Nov 20, 2015 3:31 pm
Contact:

Re: 40k newbie: 1st Army building (CD & CSM) and other questions :D

Post by Geradox » Thu Mar 02, 2017 9:06 am

Oh also get the csm book and the traitor legions book. You can add the traitors hate as well since some of the stuff in hate is not in legions. And if you get legions you won't need to get wrath of Magnus unless you want to read the fluff book.
Chaos always, always chaos.

User avatar
Kovlovsky
Epic MiniWarGaming Poster, 'nuff said
Posts: 5758
Joined: Wed Jul 16, 2014 6:40 pm
Location: Québec

Re: 40k newbie: 1st Army building (CD & CSM) and other questions :D

Post by Kovlovsky » Thu Mar 02, 2017 2:08 pm

I just want to add a few things because you did get pretty complete answers already. :) There is a well made Chaos Daemons guide here on this forum: viewtopic.php?f=175&t=108747I If you haven't read it yet, it might help you a lot.

I always tell new players to follow their heart rather than their heads. This is a time hungry and expensive hobby. If you select your army on the base that it's the most powerful one currently over an army that you really love, but is less competitive, you will regret it quickly and lose interest. Loving your army is the most important thing. Competitiveness, if it's your thing, can be achieved with even the worst armies when you follow certain directions, so I wouldn't worry too much about that like a few other peoples have told you.

1) Choose a theme and then it will be easier to give you tips on what to take. The only daemons I know well are Tzeentch ones. When you field a Tzeentch army, you're trying to dominate the psychic phase mostly. Pink and blue horrors are really cheap and can generate a crazy amount of warp charges in the phase. Only a few armies will have enough dices to counter you (probably only, other Tzeentch daemons, Grey Knights and Thousand Sons CSMs). The Tzeentch models are pretty much all good. The Flamers are the only ones that are trully situational. They tend to do very well against xenos and horde armies, but they are dangerous to use against Marines equivalent (MEQs) because of the Warpflame special rule. Their flamers are AP4 and won't ignore the 3+ save of the marines, so they are likely to survive. If they do, the Warflame rule force them to make a toughness test. If they fail it, they suffer D3 extra wounds with no save allowed. If they succeed (and they are more likely to succeed than not), they get Feel no Pain 6+ or +1 to FnP if they already have it. So, I wouldn't use them against marines. However, all other Tzeentch models are worth fielding in most situations. In all cases, choose the god or gods your prefer.

2) CSMs are mostly useful to give the daemons some fire support if your daemons are your main army. This is because the daemons have very little traditional shooting. Almost any of the legions will be useful, but the most shooty ones are the Iron Warriors, the Emperor's Children and the Thousand Sons. The Black Legion has a powerful psychic formation (the Cyclopia Cabal) that can be great if you go with Tzeentch daemons. The Alpha Legion gets infiltrate on CSMs, Chosen and cultists while the Chosen become troop choices. This can be nice if you go for melta chosen, infiltrate them and you have nice tank hunters which is something the daemons generally struggle with. World Eaters can pull off a first turn charge too, but I'm not sure if it's worth it if you aren't going to make them the primary army. Oh, and the Death Guard is unkillable, almost just as much as Necrons. So, you have some nice options for you depending on your theme and interests.

3) I would say that the Khorne Daemonkins (KDK) are probably the ideal army if you love both Khorne daemons and CSMs and want to make a combined army of both. Their daemons are better because they gain Fearless and lose Daemonic Instability which can screw you hard after an unlucky round of CC. Unfortunately, in my opinion, they don't work that well as allies because I believe their mechanics around the bloodtithe points can only be used when you field their formations. It can be hard to find the points to bring one alongside another detachment, but if you can do it, it might have some worth. Considering that you both love Khorne daemons and CSMs, it might be the best choice for you as your main army, but keep it mind that it means that you won't take any daemons from other gods except inside an ally detachment. They also have more restrictive unit choices than regular CSMs, particularly in the shooting department.

4) Yeah, that's a mess. Basically, lately, instead of updating the codices, they released a number of campaign supplements that added formations and some rules changes for armies that didn't have a 7th edition update yet. Daemons are one of these. The problem is that everything is scattered because of that. Most of their formations have been added inside the Warzone Fenris: Curse of the Wulfen (book 1). I think the book is availlable in the store as a cheaper soft cover book by now. You also have new god affiliated artifacts there and some other rules changes. You also have new pink, blue and brimstone horrors rules inside Warzone Fenris: Wrath of the Magnus (book 2) that make them even more annoying for the opponent and a few new Tzeentch formations and a new Tzeentch detachment of doubtful usefulness. Aside the detachment, the new stuff is neat for Tzeentch. But the book is largely for fielding a Thousand Sons CSM army, so unless you go for a fully tzeentchian theme, I wouldn't buy it and try to find another way to get the rules for Tzeentch.

5) It has already been answered. CSMs psykers can also roll on this discipline, but non daemons get Perils of the Warp on all doubles and not just double 6s as normal. However, Word Bearers manifest all daemonolgy powers on 3+, making them decent summoners. A Thousand Sons army has access to a gillion of warp charges, so they can do it too, but will peril more often, so it's advisable to use the TS Grand Coven if you go for this because it allows them to reroll their result on the Peril chart and it mitigates the negative consequences.

It will be easier to guide you more once you selected a theme.
Forum's NKVD Cpt. Kovlovsky

40k : 3945 points of Thousand Sons
380 pts of Tzeentch Daemons of Chaos

Thousand Sons WiP : http://www.miniwargaming.com/forum/view ... 6&t=114889

Fantasy : OnG

Skullthrone
MiniWarGaming Beginner
Posts: 11
Joined: Wed Mar 01, 2017 3:49 am

Re: 40k newbie: 1st Army building (CD & CSM) and other questions :D

Post by Skullthrone » Fri Mar 03, 2017 8:51 am

Wow there is a lot of advice here, thank you so much for the help! This is all really interesting. I got myself the core 40k Rulebook to have a read through over the weekend, but still have some questions.

1) I am inclined to start with Khorne Daemons as they look cool, but I am worried about the absence of Dakka as a mono army (to begin with)... will Khorne Daemons just be bullet sponges for Necron, Marines and so on, so how do Khorne Daemons make up for this? I presume if I just ran at a group of Necrons I will be shot to bits before I get to them?
I am aware of Deep Strike but it is very random and can only be used for deployment? Additionally I get Khorne have good MEQ, but if I cannot get to them it's all for nothing! :D

2) Silly question, but if I choose to have a daemon army from 2 Chaos Gods, would this be classed, and work the same as if I was to have KD with CSM? I know Daemons are the same codex but still different factions.

3) So CAD is a type of formation in and of itself, so IF I had CSM with my KD as part of my army, is CAD my only/best choice as far as formations go?

4) I ask this as I am still on the fence as to whether I want to start a 2 Chaos God Daemon Army, OR do I want to use CSM with maybe some Allied Daemons and also the use of Daemon Summoning, plus I heard you can have certain units turn into Bloodthirster and/or other Dreater Daemons.

Many thanks again in advance, sorry again for the questions :D I am trying to read this all from Codex/Google as I go, but it is a lot to grasp.

User avatar
Koonitz
Mighty Manufactorium of MiniWarGaming Posts
Posts: 2833
Joined: Thu Aug 07, 2014 8:20 pm
Ribbons Earned: Has Completed 5 Painting PledgesHas Completed 10 Painting Pledges
Location: Grande Prairie, AB, CA

Re: 40k newbie: 1st Army building (CD & CSM) and other questions :D

Post by Koonitz » Fri Mar 03, 2017 11:02 am

I've only answered questions I can reasonably answer:
Skullthrone wrote: 2) Silly question, but if I choose to have a daemon army from 2 Chaos Gods, would this be classed, and work the same as if I was to have KD with CSM? I know Daemons are the same codex but still different factions.
Unless otherwise specified, units in a single codex count as part of a single army. As Such, you can take units in the Chaos Daemons book that are from different gods. You may have an army that includes a unit of Bloodletters, Daemonettes, pink horrors and a Blood Thirster, so long as they were all taken from Chaos Daemons. KDK are a separate Codex and, as such, cannot be mixed and matched into a Chaos Daemons army without using the rules for allies.

There are two situations I can think off the top of my head where it is more complicated. That is Codex: Space Marines (because of how Chapter Tactics work) and Codex: Chaos Space Marines using the Legions supplement. In both cases, an entire detachment or formation must all use the same Chapter Tactics or be from the same Legion. Though if you wish to have units from a different Chapter/Legion, you can, but would have to ally them in through another detachment/formation.

Note that a single detachment or formation must all come from the same army (see next question).
Skullthrone wrote: 3) So CAD is a type of formation in and of itself, so IF I had CSM with my KD as part of my army, is CAD my only/best choice as far as formations go?
No. Note my previous statement. a CAD is a single type of detachment. As such, every unit in the CAD must come from the same army (or from the same codex). So one full CAD would come from KDK and, if you wanted to bring CSM into the army, you'd have to bring another CAD, with its own minimum requirements (so you'd have a total of 2 HQ and 4 TROOPS minimum). Note that KDK includes units that are, technically, CSM, however these units are included in KDK and, as such, may be taken as part of a KDK army. They are not, however, CSM, and do not include the options available in Codex:CSM, only the options available in Codex:KDK. There is no cross-over, despite having the same name.

As CAD is only one type of detachment, a CAD is not required to bring allies. Nor is the Allied detachment (AD), also detailed in the rulebook. You may take any formation or detachment available to each army you wish to include. So you may have a KDK formation and ally in a CSM formation that you like, without including a CAD, at all. As such, it is often easier to make allied lists using other detachments or formations, instead of CAD.

Note, however, that a CAD is usually the simplest way to create an army to help you get used to the rules of the game to start. As such, I recommend starting there and learning the game as you go. From that point, you can use your knowledge to start looking at formations, which can help you focus what to buy next as you build your collection.
Skullthrone wrote: 4) I ask this as I am still on the fence as to whether I want to start a 2 Chaos God Daemon Army, OR do I want to use CSM with maybe some Allied Daemons and also the use of Daemon Summoning, plus I heard you can have certain units turn into Bloodthirster and/or other Dreater Daemons.
There are two ways to create Bloodthirsters in the middle of the game using army mechanics. One is the Malefic Daemonology psychic power possession. It is a difficult power to get off but, if successful, replaces the casting psyker with a Bloodthirster (or other greater daemon of choice). The second is the Khorne Daemonkin Blood Tithe mechanic. Through the course of the game, KDK armies build up blood tithe, up to a maximum of 8 points. They spend these over the course of the game to gain benefits. The 8 point benefit replaces a character model in your army with a Bloodthirster. Exactly how this mechanic works is detailed in Codex:KDK.

Edit: Third: There is a relic in the Khorne Daemonkin book that when the character carrying it dies, replace him with a Bloodthirster. There are more rules to it, but that's technically a third way.
Armies:
40k: Knights Cynosure Iron Hands successor chapter, House Terryn Questor Imperialis, Thousand Sons/Tzeentch Daemons
30k: Thousand Sons
Age of Sigmar: Sylvaneth, Disciples of Tzeentch

Skullthrone
MiniWarGaming Beginner
Posts: 11
Joined: Wed Mar 01, 2017 3:49 am

Re: 40k newbie: 1st Army building (CD & CSM) and other questions :D

Post by Skullthrone » Tue Mar 07, 2017 11:37 am

Hi all,

Many thanks for all the info, really interesting.. Given they I liked Khorne and wanted allied CSM, I decided it made more sense (after looking at the Codex) to go for KDK! They look bad butt and have some Dakka so I am very happy.

Thanks a lot for all the info!! I have some modelling questions but will start a new topic for that.

:twisted:

Geradox
MiniWarGaming Veteran
Posts: 183
Joined: Fri Nov 20, 2015 3:31 pm
Contact:

Re: 40k newbie: 1st Army building (CD & CSM) and other questions :D

Post by Geradox » Tue Mar 07, 2017 11:52 am

another way to get a bloodthirster is by random luck on the empyric storm table
Chaos always, always chaos.

User avatar
Koonitz
Mighty Manufactorium of MiniWarGaming Posts
Posts: 2833
Joined: Thu Aug 07, 2014 8:20 pm
Ribbons Earned: Has Completed 5 Painting PledgesHas Completed 10 Painting Pledges
Location: Grande Prairie, AB, CA

Re: 40k newbie: 1st Army building (CD & CSM) and other questions :D

Post by Koonitz » Tue Mar 07, 2017 10:14 pm

Geradox wrote:another way to get a bloodthirster is by random luck on the empyric storm table
While true, I did not include it in my options as it is not a reliable army-based method of acquiring one. It is effectively random, and is only available if both players agree to use the rules for the Empyric storms. While the options I listed do not require opponents permission to include in your army and may be taken advantage of in any scenario.
Armies:
40k: Knights Cynosure Iron Hands successor chapter, House Terryn Questor Imperialis, Thousand Sons/Tzeentch Daemons
30k: Thousand Sons
Age of Sigmar: Sylvaneth, Disciples of Tzeentch

Locked

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest