Daemonic allies

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Kalidas
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Daemonic allies

Post by Kalidas » Wed Feb 22, 2017 11:47 am

So I am pretty happy with my base Death Guard army currently and am thinking of what would be some future stuff to look forward towards. I guess I should give out my list of what I have before I move on any further

First I am doing the Death Guard vectorium, so everything has FnP and veterans so I won't add those in just assume their in there.

Chaos Warband:

HQ:

Lord on a bike with the plaguebringer artifact, aura of dark glory, gift of mutation, and blight grenades

Troops: 2 units of 7 chaos space marines with plasma gun

Fast attack: 3 nurgle bikers, champion has a power sword, the other two bikers have melta guns

Elite: One unit of 4 Terminators, each one has a combi melta, the champion has a chain fist, the other 3 have power axes

Heavy: 5 Havocs with 3 auto cannons, and one missile launcher in a rhino with dozer blades


Auxillary

2 Chaos spawn (was only able to buy one box of spawn, I know 4 would be better)


So that is more or less the core of my army, I am currently working on making a 1500 point list which is more or less the same with an added sorcerer more bikes and more havocs. But I got thinking of making an 1850 point list for possible future tournaments and thought maybe take my base 1000 point list (maybe beef it up a bit more with another rhino and more bikes) and add an allied detachment of nurgle daemons? Bring a Great Unlcean One (that forge world model looks AMAZING) and some daemons with summoning to summon in more daemons. The main thing would be to add psycher levels, and maybe try and summon in a bunch of more stuff, if not that than all go in on biomancy and create a giant ball of "hard to kill".

Thoughts? Advice?

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Re: Daemonic allies

Post by Kovlovsky » Wed Feb 22, 2017 2:35 pm

Hey! Glad to see that you're going foward building your chaos army!

So, I have a few advices for your current list. First, I would drop the Boon of Mutation on your Chaos Lord and with the pts saved, I would replace the Aura of Dark Glory by a Sigil of Corruption. Boon of Mutation rarely adds something worthwhile while going from 5++ to 4++ makes a big difference in challenges and you're going to fight a lot of them with a Chaos Lord, trust me.

My second point is about your Havocs. I have to say that I'm not convinced that giving them a Rhino is the best thing to do. DG Havocs get relentless and can move and shoot at full ballistic skill on foot. In a Rhino, they would still snap shoot if it advances more than 6 inches because of the vehicle rules. On top of that, you are halving your firepower since there are only two fire points. The Rhino should be instead given to one of the CSM squad so that it can move faster and go seize the objectives you need. Also, do you have a single ML in your squad because these are the only models that you have or is it deliberate? If it's the second reason, I would advise against it. This is because a unit must shoot all their weapons on the same target. It means that sometimes, you will want to shoot your ML on things the Autocannons cannot harm like a Land Raider by example or you will have to shoot on things that the ML isn't optimised against. Ideally, you want a single weapon type for the whole squad. Loyalists can have two types of weapons because they can combat squad their devastators, but we can't. If it's the first reason, the best ways of making Chaos devastators right now is either to kit bash them using the loyalist kit when they have the right weapons or buy one of the FW heavy weapons set for 30k and glue them on Chaos Marines (a large part of them are made to be wielded like bolters). Certain weapons that are wielded on the shoulders will need the Legion Heavy Support bodies and arms because Chaos Marines don't have the right arms.

The last is more an option to consider rather than a critic. It's simply that you should consider using spawns as a delivery system for your lord and use your bikers as a mobile firepower unit instead. Nurgle Spawns are actually the best spawns since they are T6 (this make the unit majority toughness 6 as well) while being fast and killy enough for close combat. The bikes are decent in CC, but Nurgle Spawn are so good, it's hard not to take them and free the bikes for some tank hunting. If you use the bikes this way, I would add a combi-melta on the champion for some extra punch. You keep the sword if you want as a defensive mesure in case they get charged.

Otherwise, it seems all good to me.

As for adding daemons, I have to say that I have very little experience about them. I just heard that Plaguebearers, Beasts of Nurgle and Plague Drones are solid choices. There is also the Nurgle Soul Grinder that is very durable for being shrouded like other Nurgle daemons. So, he will have a great cover save if you put him inside terrain. I heard also that the Great Unclean one is terribly slow (Slow and Purposeful) and he's hard to use because of this despite very tough if you roll on Biomancy and get Iron Arm. If you take one, use deep strike to bring him on the board. But a better choice would probably be a Daemon Prince of Nurgle. He has a 2+ jink save thanks to being Shrouded. I would probably take him as a CSM and give him the Black Mace or another good daemon weapon (especially those that aren't AP2 since being a monstrous creature will bring the weapon to AP2 anyway). If you want to summon stuff, use daemon models (including CSM DP) because daemon malefic psykers don't peril on doubles.

I hope this will help you!
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Kalidas
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Re: Daemonic allies

Post by Kalidas » Wed Feb 22, 2017 3:33 pm

First, HOW DID I NEVER NOTICE THE SIGIL OF CORRUPTION?! You are so right, that is WAY better then a 5++ with a roll on the table.

Its the first issue with the havocs. The havocs came from my dad(a lot of my stuff are gifted to me from my dad, I actually have too many terminators than I know what to do with) and I only have what ever pieces he has, but I like your advice just need some more misse launchers (I have 4 autocannons already) and maybe make two units of havocs(for higher point games) or just take the one. I agree with the rhino in my first game it wasnt useful, it reduced my firepower turn one (could only use 2 of the four weapons) the rbino got wrecked and I ended up keeping the havocs in the back because they had range on everything anyways without moving.

Dont worry I did run the lord with the spawn, even the two did a great job, either I need to buy another box or kitbash a bunch of junk and make two of my own because 4 will be nice(esspecially in helping the lord win combat against the Yncarne muwahahaha) yeah my first game back was against a tournement level eldar army... fun stuff, I think hes bringing D weapons next time (yikes).

I am not super worried about summoning just more or less want some more psyker stuff and thought daemons could work(reading over the dex I see the only ones that spam psykers are pink horrors). But yeah maybe a prince in higher point games. Right now I am looking at a sorcerer for 1500 points, problem is one level HAS to go to a nurgle power, but thats still 2 rolls on biomancy, or telepethy(if I want to try for invisibility and be a dick). My big thing with the great unclean one is simple, its such an awesome model :D

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Re: Daemonic allies

Post by Kalidas » Wed Feb 22, 2017 3:39 pm

Speaking of a nurgle sorcerer. Would he be better on a palaquin with a sigil, or terminator armor? Currently I have him in terminator armor so I can use my typhus model as the sorcerer, but I can easily make a sorcerer on a palaquin

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Re: Daemonic allies

Post by Kovlovsky » Wed Feb 22, 2017 3:50 pm

Kalidas wrote:First, HOW DID I NEVER NOTICE THE SIGIL OF CORRUPTION?! You are so right, that is WAY better then a 5++ with a roll on the table.
To your defence, they kind of hide it in a different section with non related pieces of equipment in the goal of making it unavaillable to certain models (Warpsmiths in particular). :P
Kalidas wrote:Its the first issue with the havocs. The havocs came from my dad(a lot of my stuff are gifted to me from my dad, I actually have too many terminators than I know what to do with) and I only have what ever pieces he has, but I like your advice just need some more misse launchers (I have 4 autocannons already) and maybe make two units of havocs(for higher point games) or just take the one. I agree with the rhino in my first game it wasnt useful, it reduced my firepower turn one (could only use 2 of the four weapons) the rbino got wrecked and I ended up keeping the havocs in the back because they had range on everything anyways without moving.
Yes, I understand. If you want a fun and quite effective way to field a lot of terminators, try the Terminator Annihilation Force as an auxiliary formation. With a terminator lord using a Burning Brand of Skalathrax, it's quite powerful because the whole formation can shoot twice after coming from deep strike amongst other bonuses. It's probably not terribly competitive, but it's fun. Glad of having been of service by suggesting better ways to get more havocs. The current resin havoc kit is terrible. Don't buy it. It's way overpriced and unpractical.
Kalidas wrote:Dont worry I did run the lord with the spawn, even the two did a great job, either I need to buy another box or kitbash a bunch of junk and make two of my own because 4 will be nice(esspecially in helping the lord win combat against the Yncarne muwahahaha) yeah my first game back was against a tournement level eldar army... fun stuff, I think hes bringing D weapons next time (yikes).
Yes, I read the account of your game you wrote on the forum. You did well all things considered. Eldars are amongst the toughest matches for CSMs and competitive Eldars are even worse.
Kalidas wrote:I am not super worried about summoning just more or less want some more psyker stuff and thought daemons could work(reading over the dex I see the only ones that spam psykers are pink horrors). But yeah maybe a prince in higher point games. Right now I am looking at a sorcerer for 1500 points, problem is one level HAS to go to a nurgle power, but thats still 2 rolls on biomancy, or telepethy(if I want to try for invisibility and be a dick). My big thing with the great unclean one is simple, its such an awesome model :D
Psykers are a lot of fun and can be quite potent when well used. I wouldn't be a TS player if I was thinking this after all! I hear you on having to take at least one power on the patron god's discipline. It increasingly annoys me these days and it's really irritating. I hope this will be gone in the next codex. And yeah, bring the models you like the most. Unless you are playing to win, I warmly recommand you to bring what you like.
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Re: Daemonic allies

Post by Whitewing » Wed Feb 22, 2017 10:12 pm

If you're looking for a Psyker that rolls entirely on Biomancy a Nurgle Psyker of some sort (Herald, Great Unclean One, Prince) fits the bill nicely. Chaos Daemon Psykers have the opposite rule from the CSM codex, they aren't forced to take powers from their god's school, but they can't take MORE than half from that school. Very odd rule, frankly, but for Nurgle it works wonders, as Biomancy is incredible.

If you're looking for a smaller Daemon force to add to a CSM one I would avoid Daemon Princes. Nurgle Daemon Princes are incredibly powerful, but only if they have enough points in them, they really do need Wings, several Mastery Levels in Biomancy and a Balesword in order to show their full effectiveness. Expect to spend around 250-300 points on average, with a few more or less depending on personal preference.

My tip for a less points-heavy option that is still powerful would be to take a Great Unclean One. You can still pump him up a bit with Mastery Levels and a Balesword if you want, and if you get lucky enough to roll Iron Arm on him you'll be laughing all game (toughness 10 ignoring everything below str 7 WOOOPWOOOOOOP!) But he doesn't need the same level of points commitment to still perform consistently as the Daemon Prince.
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Re: Daemonic allies

Post by Kalidas » Wed Feb 22, 2017 10:17 pm

Yeah I learned quite a bit and feel a little more prepared for next time. It didnt help that I litteraly had to add 500 points to my army in the course of like 10 minutes off the top of my head.

Eldar are a struggle, but I realized that game how good DG can be. I feel the best way to win will be to play the objective game, its tough to kill me off of objectives.

Thousand sons look pretty fun too. Its funny I like the ide of psykers but I went Deathguard(i picked deathguard years before the new detachments). I am so jealous of your exaulted sorcerers, they are like the perfect combo between a lord and sorcersd. They can cast like a sorcerer(with more wounds by the way), and are almost as good in combat as a lord. If I could I would run one as the warlord over the chaos lord.

I hope one day GW makes a way for us to kind of make our own independent characters of a sort. I mean I already am writing a kind of background for my lord so in my headcannon he is pretty bad butt

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Re: Daemonic allies

Post by Kalidas » Wed Feb 22, 2017 10:18 pm

Whitewing wrote:If you're looking for a Psyker that rolls entirely on Biomancy a Nurgle Psyker of some sort (Herald, Great Unclean One, Prince) fits the bill nicely. Chaos Daemon Psykers have the opposite rule from the CSM codex, they aren't forced to take powers from their god's school, but they can't take MORE than half from that school. Very odd rule, frankly, but for Nurgle it works wonders, as Biomancy is incredible.

If you're looking for a smaller Daemon force to add to a CSM one I would avoid Daemon Princes. Nurgle Daemon Princes are incredibly powerful, but only if they have enough points in them, they really do need Wings, several Mastery Levels in Biomancy and a Balesword in order to show their full effectiveness. Expect to spend around 250-300 points on average, with a few more or less depending on personal preference.

My tip for a less points-heavy option that is still powerful would be to take a Great Unclean One. You can still pump him up a bit with Mastery Levels and a Balesword if you want, and if you get lucky enough to roll Iron Arm on him you'll be laughing all game (toughness 10 ignoring everything below str 7 WOOOPWOOOOOOP!) But he doesn't need the same level of points commitment to still perform consistently as the Daemon Prince.
Real glad to hear that great unclean ones can be good actually. Another thought I had when playing with lists was 4 heralds maxed ML rolling biomancy and running around buffing everyone

But a deepstriking unclean one on my oppents end of the table with T10 sounds awesome and forces them to deal with him, or else he will frick crap up. Plus I already have nerglings and plague bringers so I would only need that one model(albeit the forgeworld one is expensive) as opposed to buying 4 heralds

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Re: Daemonic allies

Post by Geradox » Thu Feb 23, 2017 9:53 am

This is giving me great advice cause I got my best friends brothers sister into chaos she will be playing nurgke daemons for the most part and ally in my csm . She just loves giant gross looking creatures for some reason
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Re: Daemonic allies

Post by Kalidas » Thu Feb 23, 2017 1:25 pm

Geradox wrote:This is giving me great advice cause I got my best friends brothers sister into chaos she will be playing nurgke daemons for the most part and ally in my csm . She just loves giant gross looking creatures for some reason
I don't know if you can use the new formations as an ally force, but if you can tell her to look at the plague colony as a potential CSM (nurgle specifically) ally force. It would fit the theme perfectly, and the plague colony has some pretty neat effects

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Re: Daemonic allies

Post by Kovlovsky » Thu Feb 23, 2017 2:43 pm

Kalidas wrote:
Geradox wrote:This is giving me great advice cause I got my best friends brothers sister into chaos she will be playing nurgke daemons for the most part and ally in my csm . She just loves giant gross looking creatures for some reason
I don't know if you can use the new formations as an ally force, but if you can tell her to look at the plague colony as a potential CSM (nurgle specifically) ally force. It would fit the theme perfectly, and the plague colony has some pretty neat effects
You can take any formation alongside your detachment or anything. The only thing that you need to respect is the rules for allies.
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Re: Daemonic allies

Post by Kalidas » Thu Feb 23, 2017 2:52 pm

Ah okay kool. Wasnt sure if the faction had to be your main detachment to be taken or not.

Well then my point is correct, I think the plague colony would be an awesome detachment to take as an allied force with nurgle daemons

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Re: Daemonic allies

Post by Whitewing » Thu Feb 23, 2017 10:47 pm

I have two things to note quickly for Chaos Daemons:

* The 4 Heralds as 1 HQ choice thing only works if the Daemons are your Primary detachment. Not entirely sure of the wording on what is and is not primary nowadays, but I think it still means the Daemons have to be Combined Arms detachment. Just keep it in mind.

* While I was checking the FAQ for a ruling on the Herald rule, I found a pair of Erratas that change text on the 58th page of the codex, adding in "command benefits" for the whole objective marker corruption thing and making it so that Chaos Daemon Psykers can take all their powers from the Discipline of their god... The problem being that page 58 of the codex is the rules for the Masque of Slaanesh. I know it's PROBABLY referring to Daemon rules in a different book, but the FAQ specifically states it is for Codex: Chaos Daemons, so... the question becomes... does this errata actually do anything? Does it give the Masque Command Benefits that you gain if you field her? Or does it change the Combined Arms detachment command benefits for all Daemons? Because there are no formations in the Chaos Daemons codex to modify, logically these benefits would apply to all Daemon forces, if they are global, or all Daemons armies using the Masque, if it gives the rules to her.
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Re: Daemonic allies

Post by Koonitz » Fri Feb 24, 2017 11:00 am

Whitewing wrote:* The 4 Heralds as 1 HQ choice thing only works if the Daemons are your Primary detachment. Not entirely sure of the wording on what is and is not primary nowadays, but I think it still means the Daemons have to be Combined Arms detachment. Just keep it in mind.
Yes and no. What it means is that whenever you are taking a formation or detachment that has an open HQ slot for you to fill, it means you may take up to 4 Heralds for that slot, as up to 4 Heralds count as only 1 HQ choice. It is not limited to CAD, though CAD may be the only currently available detachment for Chaos Daemons that offers an open HQ slot for a primary detachment (Allied Detachment cannot be your primary detachment, so that's out).

It does not, however, mean that in any formation that requires you to take 1 Herald, you would be able to take 1-4. Because in this case, it is not an open HQ slot you are filling. You are filling a requirement of "1 Herald". That is entirely different.

I'm afraid I don't have an answer to your second question.
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Re: Daemonic allies

Post by Whitewing » Fri Feb 24, 2017 8:49 pm

Double checked the rulebook on primary detachments, it's based on which detachment/formation your warlord id a part of, and you only have 1 "primary" detachment, regardless of the Chaos Daemons codex claiming you can take 4 Herald for "each" primary detachment. You're still correct on the Allied detachment never being primary, but that is because of the Allied restriction of never being able to contain your warlord.

So any Daemon formation/detachment that you add to an army as an extra, i.e. not have a CD warlord, cannot take 4 Heralds.
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