Help! Getting stomped in high points.

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gluttonousbolter
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Help! Getting stomped in high points.

Post by gluttonousbolter » Mon Feb 20, 2017 11:59 am

My current meta is leaving me a bit frustrated. The easiest way for me to get a game in is teams at 2k points a piece. and my fluffy mostly power armor lists seem to handle their own below 1500, but are a laughing stock vs 4k of opponents.

I know I need to step up my game to enjoy gaming with my friends, but don't want to cross the line and be called cheesey myself, plus I'd still like to play models I enjoy. I'd like this army to be simple to play, as it gets quite loud and quick play is also courtesy to the other players. This criteria has me leaning towards Demon Princes, Heldrakes, and Super Heavy Lords of War.

Lists Ive been thinking about...

2 Demon Princes
Oblits or Raptors As Troops
Brass Scorpian/Kytan/Knight
x2 Heldrake

Juggerlord(s)
Spawn
CSM/Cultist
Brass Scorpian/Kytan/Knight
x2 Heldrake

4 Demon Princes
Death Guard Vectorium
x3 Heldrake

Duel CAD
4 Demon Princes
x4 Cultists
x2 Knight


Would you refuse to play any of these lists? Which template would you think is most competitive?

Salamand3rs4Lyfe
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Re: Help! Getting stomped in high points.

Post by Salamand3rs4Lyfe » Mon Feb 20, 2017 12:10 pm

Unless your opponents are also using superheavies it might be considered cheese to take not 1 but 2 knights. If we knew what armies you played against we might be more helpful
Armies i collect:
11,115pts csm The Privileged
7,268pts Salamanders
1,200pts gsc Sons of Jormangandr

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Kovlovsky
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Re: Help! Getting stomped in high points.

Post by Kovlovsky » Mon Feb 20, 2017 12:14 pm

Yeah, right. Just looking at them without knowing what they will face, it just looks like cheddar. But, if you're facing people with multiple Wraithknights or Stormsurges, suddenly it makes a lot more sense that you bring your own.
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gluttonousbolter
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Re: Help! Getting stomped in high points.

Post by gluttonousbolter » Mon Feb 20, 2017 12:37 pm

I guess everyone's meta balances on a fine line of waac and friendly... some examples of lists

Maybe 25% of games include a super heavy
Lots of Eldar: Jet Bikes, some with 20+ warp charges, others with wave serpant((?) speeder transport.) Basically everything.
SM: Gladius, drop pop heavy, 1 guy always plays smashfornicator.
Necrons: Kinda like eldar, every list is sorta tough
Tau: Only played a friendly list, but 2 units (crisis suits?) destroyed my whole army while he fed me kroot

From my perspective, my meta is to win while having the 2nd cheesiest list

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Kovlovsky
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Re: Help! Getting stomped in high points.

Post by Kovlovsky » Mon Feb 20, 2017 1:18 pm

gluttonousbolter wrote:I guess everyone's meta balances on a fine line of waac and friendly... some examples of lists

Maybe 25% of games include a super heavy
Lots of Eldar: Jet Bikes, some with 20+ warp charges, others with wave serpant((?) speeder transport.) Basically everything.
SM: Gladius, drop pop heavy, 1 guy always plays smashfornicator.
Necrons: Kinda like eldar, every list is sorta tough
Tau: Only played a friendly list, but 2 units (crisis suits?) destroyed my whole army while he fed me kroot

From my perspective, my meta is to win while having the 2nd cheesiest list
Yeah I see. Well, I understand why you want to take the heavy artillery with you.

After a quick view, I think that these two are my favorite cheese eaters:
2 Demon Princes
Oblits or Raptors As Troops
Brass Scorpian/Kytan/Knight
x2 Heldrake
I heard very good things on the Brass Scorpion and they do well in tournaments. Obliterators as troop is nasty, but this is an Iron Warriors things, so I guess this will be in a IW CAD, right? I think I will go with these since Raptors are a bit expensive for what they do and Obliterators are more flexible. IW Obliterators are even better because they have Tank Hunter. The Heldrakes and Daemon Princes would give you mobility.
4 Demon Princes
Death Guard Vectorium
x3 Heldrake
The Death Guard is so good at the moment and I think this would be extremely hard to put down. The only thing I would criticise is that with 4 DP and 3 Heldrakes, the Vectorum will be stripped out and honestly, I think you will need it to be functional. You don't want to waste the strength of having FnP rerolling 1s. You want 10 men squads that capture and keep objectives and are extemely hard to remove from where they stand. Furthermore, DPs and Heldrakes aren't great at dealing with armor, so I suspect you will need melta Chosen to clear up all the Camembert your enemies bring. :P So, I don't think you need that many DP and Heldrakes.

The other lists don't have as much potential in my view. Knights are relatively strong, but since you have Necrons against you, they will make short work of them with Gauss weapons. The one with the Juggerlord is close combat heavy and unless you make a proper World Eater Force with the relic that make possible first turn charges, you will have trouble against Tau and other shooty lists.
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40k : 3945 points of Thousand Sons
380 pts of Tzeentch Daemons of Chaos

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Kalidas
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Re: Help! Getting stomped in high points.

Post by Kalidas » Tue Feb 21, 2017 11:49 am

I would second Kovlovsky's sentiments about Death Guard. They are very very good right now, and I agree, that many princes will cut into the vectorium too much. The 3 Helldrakes (I think) are a great addition, but maybe just 2 princes? Use those points of the other two to really beef up your vectorium. Right now nurgle Chaos Space Marines in a vectorium are better than plague marines, and plague marines were one of the best units in the entire codex. 5 toughness MINIMUM, 18 inch stealth, with FNP (rerolling 1s) across the board is just amazing and a major pain to get rid of.

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Re: Help! Getting stomped in high points.

Post by Koonitz » Tue Feb 21, 2017 3:10 pm

Salamand3rs4Lyfe wrote:Unless your opponents are also using superheavies it might be considered cheese to take not 1 but 2 knights. If we knew what armies you played against we might be more helpful
Just making a quick pass on this. Remember that this is a 2v2 game, with 2000 points per person. That's 4000 points per side.

1-2 Knights is insignificant in 4000 points.

I have fielded 2 Knights in 2000 points and, when the opponent knows it and can adapt, they're more a liability than anything. They're manageable at 2000 points. 2 Knights are laughably easy to kill when you have 4000 points to aim at it. It's even worse in true Apocalypse games, where I honestly actively recommend NOT bringing Knights, because they can straight lose you the game, simply by being a target.

Still netted me one of the funniest moments when my Knight failed a 5" charge on a Necron barge (the one that doesn't have the Lord mounted on it), got destroyed, then fell on top of said barge (the explosion scattered onto the barge, destroying it).
Armies:
40k: Knights Cynosure Iron Hands successor chapter, House Terryn Questor Imperialis, Thousand Sons/Tzeentch Daemons
30k: Thousand Sons
Age of Sigmar: Sylvaneth, Disciples of Tzeentch

Salamand3rs4Lyfe
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Re: Help! Getting stomped in high points.

Post by Salamand3rs4Lyfe » Tue Feb 21, 2017 7:28 pm

Going to be honest Koonitz but I didnt see the 2v2 thing. I thought it was 1v1 and that is where the statement originated from
Armies i collect:
11,115pts csm The Privileged
7,268pts Salamanders
1,200pts gsc Sons of Jormangandr

Kalidas
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Re: Help! Getting stomped in high points.

Post by Kalidas » Tue Feb 21, 2017 9:58 pm

Koonitz wrote:
Salamand3rs4Lyfe wrote:Unless your opponents are also using superheavies it might be considered cheese to take not 1 but 2 knights. If we knew what armies you played against we might be more helpful
Just making a quick pass on this. Remember that this is a 2v2 game, with 2000 points per person. That's 4000 points per side.

1-2 Knights is insignificant in 4000 points.

I have fielded 2 Knights in 2000 points and, when the opponent knows it and can adapt, they're more a liability than anything. They're manageable at 2000 points. 2 Knights are laughably easy to kill when you have 4000 points to aim at it. It's even worse in true Apocalypse games, where I honestly actively recommend NOT bringing Knights, because they can straight lose you the game, simply by being a target.

Still netted me one of the funniest moments when my Knight failed a 5" charge on a Necron barge (the one that doesn't have the Lord mounted on it), got destroyed, then fell on top of said barge (the explosion scattered onto the barge, destroying it).
Question, is that the case for ALL Titans or just the Chaos Knights?

I have noticed in most of the batreps with titans I see from miniwargaming, the titans dont do as much as I thought they would do.

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Re: Help! Getting stomped in high points.

Post by Kovlovsky » Tue Feb 21, 2017 10:41 pm

Salamand3rs4Lyfe wrote:Going to be honest Koonitz but I didnt see the 2v2 thing. I thought it was 1v1 and that is where the statement originated from
It's there in the first paragraph:
gluttonousbolter wrote:My current meta is leaving me a bit frustrated. The easiest way for me to get a game in is teams at 2k points a piece. and my fluffy mostly power armor lists seem to handle their own below 1500, but are a laughing stock vs 4k of opponents.
Forum's NKVD Cpt. Kovlovsky

40k : 3945 points of Thousand Sons
380 pts of Tzeentch Daemons of Chaos

Thousand Sons WiP : http://www.miniwargaming.com/forum/view ... 6&t=114889

Fantasy : OnG

Salamand3rs4Lyfe
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Re: Help! Getting stomped in high points.

Post by Salamand3rs4Lyfe » Tue Feb 21, 2017 11:59 pm

I know, admittedly I skimmed the first paragraph without my glasses and looked at the second paragraph and the lists mainly. So my bad.
Armies i collect:
11,115pts csm The Privileged
7,268pts Salamanders
1,200pts gsc Sons of Jormangandr

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Koonitz
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Re: Help! Getting stomped in high points.

Post by Koonitz » Wed Feb 22, 2017 2:32 am

Kalidas wrote: Question, is that the case for ALL Titans or just the Chaos Knights?

I have noticed in most of the batreps with titans I see from miniwargaming, the titans dont do as much as I thought they would do.
As a general rule, expect any super-heavy/gargantuan of Knight size in any size of game (Knights, Chaos Knights, Wraith Knights, Stormsurge). Mostly this is because they are the only readily accessible super-heavy due to being GW plastic, and are points-priced reasonable enough to fit in most games without consuming too much of your army. A little less so the super-heavy tanks of the Guard (also plastic), because they're a bit heavier on points and often more unwieldy (and only available to a single army, instead of allying into any army that wants to take them).

As for "All Titans", I assume you mean to also include the heavier titans, such as the Warhound/Reaver/Revenant and other larger models.

They are much less likely to be included for a couple reasons.
1) Points. These models are much heavier on points and, as such, make it a bit more difficult to include them in your average game. The lack of a well-rounded army to surround them can be a liability in your average Maelstrom/objective based game. (After all, the Reaver titan rounds out at ~1,500 points. Good luck fielding enough models in 350 points to score those objective points).

2) Real world issues (price/availability/ease of construction/modeling). These models are produced by Forge World, which puts their price point well beyond most gamers. They are also not readily available in stores (only generally available through online ordering from Forge World, or second hand). Being from Forge World, they are resin-cast, which is a HUGE step up in difficulty for modeling/painting compared to GW's plastic kits. Do NOT go into Forge World without researching some best practices on working with their resin or you're likely to ruin a very expensive model.

3) Centerpiece status. These models tend to be big and difficult to transport and, as such, people more often prefer to leave them on the shelf as centerpiece models until it's time for a proper big game (especially when you consider not wanting to damage a model that costs THAT much!). Because of this, they also tend not to come out without everyone's knowledge (which makes them less an issue as you are expecting them and can prepare for them).


As for them doing, or not doing, much in a game, these models can be particularly damaging, IF you use the correctly. For instance, a Reaver Titan, at 1,500 points, can EASILY decimate well over 1,500 points of an enemy army, if equipped for it. However, most people who bring a Reaver bring it top-loaded with as much S:D shots as they can bring, which significantly reduce it's damage output against line infantry models and the like. If you have no super-heavies of your own, a Turbo-laser Reaver titan won't do much damage before it's tarpitted in close combat. However, said turbo-laser Reaver titan is one of the best builds for utterly decimating enemy super-heavies.

Like anything, it's very rock/paper/scissors, and if you know it's coming, you can easily build to counter it.

Price aside, Forge World titans make for some spectacular models, though, even their Knights.
[+] Expand
The Cerastus Knight Acheron, Castigator and Lancer, standing in front of two GW Knights. You can notice, even though they are still Knight class, they stand comfortably taller than their GW counterparts. The Cerastus Knight kit is, quite possibly, the singular most enjoyable model kit to work with for creativity and posability. I 100% encourage more people buying these Cerastus Knight kits.
Image
Also, I like showing them off.....
Armies:
40k: Knights Cynosure Iron Hands successor chapter, House Terryn Questor Imperialis, Thousand Sons/Tzeentch Daemons
30k: Thousand Sons
Age of Sigmar: Sylvaneth, Disciples of Tzeentch

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Re: Help! Getting stomped in high points.

Post by Arnathos » Wed Feb 22, 2017 2:41 am

If forgeworld is allowed, just go max rapiers with conversion beamers, with a couple of geomortis sorcerers to fish for ignores cover. Maybe give some of them hades autocannons as well.

You could also focus on Land Raiders filled with assault troops, but they just melt vs necrons, but then they are amazing vs jetbikes.
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