Question about detachments: Night Lords

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Adeptus007
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Question about detachments: Night Lords

Post by Adeptus007 » Sun Feb 19, 2017 12:26 pm

I've been following Wh40k for a while and I recently decided I wanted to build an army (Night Lords). I have read their special rule and I'm just confused by what they ment by any detachment can be Night Lords and gain the free VotLW. Like can I run Khorne and as long as they have no marks I can declare them Night Lords? Does the Night Lords designation not count as a detachment/formation itself (in regards to their special rule). And I also have a question about detachments in general, if they list 0-3,1-5,2-99, ext. does that mean I can run anywhere between 1-3 or do I have to run 1 or 3. Sorry if these seem really obvious I'm just a new player.

Thanks for any help

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Re: Question about detachments: Night Lords

Post by Kovlovsky » Sun Feb 19, 2017 1:10 pm

Adeptus007 wrote:I've been following Wh40k for a while and I recently decided I wanted to build an army (Night Lords). I have read their special rule and I'm just confused by what they ment by any detachment can be Night Lords and gain the free VotLW. Like can I run Khorne and as long as they have no marks I can declare them Night Lords? Does the Night Lords designation not count as a detachment/formation itself (in regards to their special rule). And I also have a question about detachments in general, if they list 0-3,1-5,2-99, ext. does that mean I can run anywhere between 1-3 or do I have to run 1 or 3. Sorry if these seem really obvious I'm just a new player.

Thanks for any help
Hello! I'm glad you decided to step in the hobby and play Chaos! And Night Lords have a cool backstory, great colour scheme and I like their upgrade kit.

As for your questions, you can declare any detachment (or formation, since a formation is a type of detachment) to be a Night Lord if it fulfills a number of requirements which are mentionned clearly in the Traitor Legions book. For the Night Lord this is:
  • You can't take any special character (so no Typhus, Huron Blackheart, etc.)
  • Nothing is allowed to have marks of Chaos.
  • Everything that can take Veterans of the Long War must take it, but you don't pay the usal amount of points for the upgrade.
Since you aren't allowed to take marks of Chaos, you can't use Khorne models including Khorne Berserkers or any character or unit that has marks of chaos by default. You clearly cannot give the mark to units which normally can be upgraded with it either. Obviously, any detachment or formation that have units with marks as requirement are incompatible with the conditions that would allow it to become a Night Lord detachment (by example the Butcher Horde has to include Khorne Berserker squads that aren't allowed to Night Lords since they the Mark of Khorne). Also, certain detachments and formations are from another legion by default and cannot become a Night Lord one (by example, the Alpha Legion Insurgency Force is Alpha Legion only).

As for your other question, when detachment say that a category of unit or formations has 0-3 availlability, the first number express the minimum necessary for the detachment to be legal and the second number is the maximum. So in this case, you must field a minimum of 0 formation or unit of this type and you can have a maximum of 3. If it's 1-4 by example, it would be 1 minimum and 4 maximum. Going under the minimum isn't allowed and going over the maximum is forbidden too. The detachment rules tell you which formations can be included in the different categories. Those that aren't there cannot be taken.

Originally, detachments were made of individual units. The classical Combined Arms Detachment and the Ally Detachment that is inside the main rulebook and availlable to all armies ask you to field at least one HQ unit and two Troop units. You can then expand it to include a grand total of two HQs, six Troops, three Elite, three Fast Attack and three Heavy Support units. In the course of the 7th Edition, Games Workshop introduced detachments made of formations instead of a collection of individual units. The detachments avaiilable in the Traitor Legions book are of this second type.

Does this answer your questions? If not, don't hesitate to ask for precisions.
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Re: Question about detachments: Night Lords

Post by Kalidas » Sun Feb 19, 2017 1:22 pm

Just adding one thing. There is ONE exception to the marks of chaos rule, Daemon Princes. Princes HAVE to take a mark, but they are the only exception as far as I can tell.

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Re: Question about detachments: Night Lords

Post by Jeffers » Sun Feb 19, 2017 1:38 pm

There is one formation you can take which is 0-4 of plague marines, ruberic marines, khorne bezerkers or noise marines. Night lords in general cannot take marks unless they are a daemon prince.

A few of them ascended but are generally chaos undivided or no god at all sincr they look down at them as if a weakness

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Re: Question about detachments: Night Lords

Post by Adeptus007 » Sun Feb 19, 2017 1:52 pm

Kovlovsky wrote:
Adeptus007 wrote:I've been following Wh40k for a while and I recently decided I wanted to build an army (Night Lords). I have read their special rule and I'm just confused by what they ment by any detachment can be Night Lords and gain the free VotLW. Like can I run Khorne and as long as they have no marks I can declare them Night Lords? Does the Night Lords designation not count as a detachment/formation itself (in regards to their special rule). And I also have a question about detachments in general, if they list 0-3,1-5,2-99, ext. does that mean I can run anywhere between 1-3 or do I have to run 1 or 3. Sorry if these seem really obvious I'm just a new player.

Thanks for any help
Hello! I'm glad you decided to step in the hobby and play Chaos! And Night Lords have a cool backstory, great colour scheme and I like their upgrade kit.

As for your questions, you can declare any detachment (or formation, since a formation is a type of detachment) to be a Night Lord if it fulfills a number of requirements which are mentionned clearly in the Traitor Legions book. For the Night Lord this is:
  • You can't take any special character (so no Typhus, Huron Blackheart, etc.)
  • Nothing is allowed to have marks of Chaos.
  • Everything that can take Veterans of the Long War must take it, but you don't pay the usal amount of points for the upgrade.
Since you aren't allowed to take marks of Chaos, you can't use Khorne models including Khorne Berserkers or any character or unit that has marks of chaos by default. You clearly cannot give the mark to units which normally can be upgraded with it either. Obviously, any detachment or formation that have units with marks as requirement are incompatible with the conditions that would allow it to become a Night Lord detachment (by example the Butcher Horde has to include Khorne Berserker squads that aren't allowed to Night Lords since they the Mark of Khorne). Also, certain detachments and formations are from another legion by default and cannot become a Night Lord one (by example, the Alpha Legion Insurgency Force is Alpha Legion only).

As for your other question, when detachment say that a category of unit or formations has 0-3 availlability, the first number express the minimum necessary for the detachment to be legal and the second number is the maximum. So in this case, you must field a minimum of 0 formation or unit of this type and you can have a maximum of 3. If it's 1-4 by example, it would be 1 minimum and 4 maximum. Going under the minimum isn't allowed and going over the maximum is forbidden too. The detachment rules tell you which formations can be included in the different categories. Those that aren't there cannot be taken.

Originally, detachments were made of individual units. The classical Combined Arms Detachment and the Ally Detachment that is inside the main rulebook and availlable to all armies ask you to field at least one HQ unit and two Troop units. You can then expand it to include a grand total of two HQs, six Troops, three Elite, three Fast Attack and three Heavy Support units. In the course of the 7th Edition, Games Workshop introduced detachments made of formations instead of a collection of individual units. The detachments avaiilable in the Traitor Legions book are of this second type.

Does this answer your questions? If not, don't hesitate to ask for precisions.
Thanks, your explanation was very clear. As for combined arms detachments, the 2 troops can be 2 squads of 10 CSM, or 1 cultist and 1 marine or any combination in between? As for Night Lords do you have any recommendations in regard to an army list? I've been looking through army lists but I'm not a huge fan of Warp talons, they just seem like really expensive raptors with no melta charges. So far my lists have focused on heavy artillery (tanks, maulerfiends, obliterators) and deep strikes, but I feel like this doesn't use the Night Lords special rules very well. I like the idea of raptors but I've heard they don't do very well against most armies and I wasn't sure how to incorporate them.

Thanks for any help, its much appreciated

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Re: Question about detachments: Night Lords

Post by Jeffers » Sun Feb 19, 2017 2:30 pm

Ive been playing them solid for a year and fluffy at that. Ive been going 2x squad 10 man marines (2 plasmas and two meltas) good size bike squad, 2x terminator squads 10 man each with lord and sorcerers. for heavies ive been going defiler with forgefiend or the tanks.

Been going even more fluffy and developing 2x 8 man squad of raptors and i recommend talons if you are up against elite based armies. The formation is sick for them with charge on deep strike and reroll charge distance

What armies do you encounter the most? Or how fluffy you want to be?

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Re: Question about detachments: Night Lords

Post by Arnathos » Sun Feb 19, 2017 2:37 pm

Kalidas wrote:Just adding one thing. There is ONE exception to the marks of chaos rule, Daemon Princes. Princes HAVE to take a mark, but they are the only exception as far as I can tell.
Daemon Princes are no exception, they cannot take a mark of Chaos. They have a different special rule with completely different effects called "Daemon of Khorne/Nurgle/Tzeentch/Slaanesh", which they have to take one of. But they cannot take marks and haven't been able to since the 6th edition codex came out.
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Re: Question about detachments: Night Lords

Post by Koonitz » Sun Feb 19, 2017 3:22 pm

Adeptus007 wrote:As for combined arms detachments, the 2 troops can be 2 squads of 10 CSM, or 1 cultist and 1 marine or any combination in between?
In a Combined Arms Detachment (CAD), the 2-6 Troops choices are 2-6 units that are considered troops, of any combination. As such, yes, you can have 1 unit of Cultists and 1 unit of CSM, if you prefer, which will fulfill the minimum requirement of 2 Troops.

That is the benefit of the CAD. More freedom of choice on what you include in your list. Other formations are more restrictive, but offer more beneficial rules bonuses. That is what you must weigh when making a list. Is freedom more important than bonus rules?
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Re: Question about detachments: Night Lords

Post by Kovlovsky » Sun Feb 19, 2017 3:22 pm

Kalidas wrote:Just adding one thing. There is ONE exception to the marks of chaos rule, Daemon Princes. Princes HAVE to take a mark, but they are the only exception as far as I can tell.
Daemon Princes cannot have marks of Chaos. They must be upgraded to Daemon of X which are different special rules with different bonuses. It might seem like a small distinction, but it means a lot rules wise.
Adeptus007 wrote: Thanks, your explanation was very clear. As for combined arms detachments, the 2 troops can be 2 squads of 10 CSM, or 1 cultist and 1 marine or any combination in between?
Yes, it can be of any combination. Also remember that with the Night Lords special rules, Raptors become Troop choices and therefore, can be taken as your troop requirements in the Combined Arm Detachment (also called CAD) and they also get Objective Secured that is given by the CAD.
Adeptus007 wrote:As for Night Lords do you have any recommendations in regard to an army list? I've been looking through army lists but I'm not a huge fan of Warp talons, they just seem like really expensive raptors with no melta charges. So far my lists have focused on heavy artillery (tanks, maulerfiends, obliterators) and deep strikes, but I feel like this doesn't use the Night Lords special rules very well. I like the idea of raptors but I've heard they don't do very well against most armies and I wasn't sure how to incorporate them.
Well, that makes things much more simple because, to be frank, Warp Talons suck. It's one of the worse unit in the codex simply because they are massively overpriced (same basic price than terminators without their flexibility, survivability and overall usefulness), don't have frag grenades which makes them Initiative 1 when charging through cover and don't have access to Icons of Chaos. Don't feel bad for not taking them.

Raptors are much better since they can get two special weapons in a minimum squad and there is a nice formation for them that allows them to deep strike turn one and charge immediately after coming from deep strike although it counts as a disordonned charge. In your special detachment, it can be used a Core formation, but many thinks that the Chaos Warband is better because of Objective Secured for everything inside it and allows to take Raptors with Objective Secured anyway. But nothing stops from taking both or alternating between the two formations or simply use a CAD for Objective Secured Raptors.The best way to use Raptors is in minimum squads with 2 of the same special weapon and deep strike them close to the enemy and hit something valuable. Two meltas are the favored configuration and you can add a combi-melta on the champion if you want more punch.

And you're right that heavy artillery isn't very Night Lordy, but you have to take fire support anyway or suffer from lack of it. In many ways, the Night Lords are a fast army that like to strike hard and then retreat before a proper counter-attack is organised. What I suggest you for a fluffy army is to use Chaos Bikes for mobile firepower. They are also a good and fluffy way to deliver a Chaos Lord on bike to its target. A Chaos Lord on bike with a Sigil of Corruption, a powerfist and a lightning claw is a great way to have a fighty Chaos lord without paying too many points. giveto him the Stormbolt plate for a 2+ save and +1 to your cover save for a 3+ jink save. Night Lords also have a nice pair of relic lightning claws with rending that is a good option. Lastly, you can keep him shooty instead and give him the Burning Brand of Skalathrax, a S4 AP3 Torrent flamer that can be murderous. Bikers are best used with two special weapons of the same type (never mix and match). Favorites are two meltas or two plasmas depending on if you want to go anti tank or anti infantry. Since bikes are relentless, firing the plasma guns don't stop them from charging. Another strong character is a Daemon Prince of Tzeentch with the Storm Bolt Plate and Mastery Level 3 psyker. This make a great and mobile psyker that can fight well in CC or just fly around and throw psychic powers everywhere while having a 2+ rerollable save and a 3+ jink save rerolling 1s. Sorcerers are a good choice too since we now have access to a great number of excellent disciplines.

The Heldrake is very useful with a baleflamer and is a great asset. The Heldrake Terror Pack formation fits really well with the Night Lords because they reduce the nearby enemies Ld depending on how many members of the formation are nearby which makes your enemies more likely to fail their Fear tests and other Ld tests. The raptor formation also reduces it by a further two. However, remember that loyalist Space Marines have And They Shall Know no Fear which makes them immune to Fear. So, it's mostly useful against Xenos, IG and other Chaos Marines.

As for Fire Support, remember that Night Lords don't like daemons and have a rather utilitarian relationship with Chaos gods. They have daemon princes and aren't beyond using some daemon machines, but don't spam them. Your Heavy Support choices should rather made of Havocs or tanks, but not too many daemon engines (1 or 2 daemon engines, but not too many). Obliterators are also daemon and won't be typically used by Night Lords. Night Lords Havocs are great because all your models with VotLW have stealth and, if you use your special detachment, you can force Night Fighting turn 1 and you get a further +1 to your cover bonus which stacks separately with stealth from your special rules. So, havocs in the open have 5+ cover and 3+ in ruins. That makes them really hard to kill with shooting except if your opponent has stuff that ignores cover. My favorite havoc configuration with 4 autocannons since they are very flexible, but 4 missile launchers are also great. 4 Lascannons is also very useful for tank hunting or killing terminators, but also relatively expensive.

Other units worth of your attention are Chosen and Terminators. The former can have up to 5 special weapons +1 combi-weapon on the champion and is a staple of CSM lists. I like them with 5 melta guns and a combi-melta, but plasma guns are great too. Terminators are interesting in many ways. A favorite is to deep strike them in min squad with 3 combi-weapon of a single type and blast something without expecting them to survive. Combi-meltas are the most usual choice, but combi-plasmas are good for killing monstrous creatures or heavy infantry.
Adeptus007 wrote:Thanks for any help, its much appreciated
It was a pleasure! If you have other questions, just let us know.
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Re: Question about detachments: Night Lords

Post by Kalidas » Sun Feb 19, 2017 5:45 pm

Ah that's right Daemons don't get marks thanks for that correction.

I agree with him raptors are decent, warp talons are terribad. Bikes are great, gives your marines T 5 and a 12 inch move,also a lord on a bike is beastly (that's what I run) and you are very lucky you get stormbolter plate, I wish I could get that on my Lord, give him aura of dark glory and he has the same survivability as a terminator.

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Re: Question about detachments: Night Lords

Post by Adeptus007 » Mon Feb 20, 2017 4:17 am

Im not worried about the army being too fluffy, mostly because I see Night Lords as opportunistic so if the chance arises and they can get heavy fire power, I believe they would take it. However I'm curious as to the formation u mentioned about the raptors being able to charge after a deep strike, I'm not very familiar with the formations/deployments. And I like the idea of the bikes, but how do they work with the Murder Talon formation, the night lords special one. As for the suggestions of a daemon prince, I probably should have mentioned that I was including that but I'm not sure how I feel about the psycher part. I see it as a very expensive unit after flying, psycher 3, and other upgrades.

Anyway thank you for the continued support, and I should also mention I currently have no units this is just planning for my army

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Re: Question about detachments: Night Lords

Post by Kalidas » Mon Feb 20, 2017 5:31 am

As far as bikes you add them in as part of a a core choice using a chaos warband. Depending on your points you could have a warband AND the raptor talon core (you can have as many core choices as you want I think), then add some spawn as your auxiliary choice, or something else. Princes are good in high point games, if you don't want a psycher Prince, Mark of Khorne is a good way to go, hell even Mark of nurgle for the higher toughness is nice.

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Re: Question about detachments: Night Lords

Post by Adeptus007 » Mon Feb 20, 2017 5:51 am

Kalidas wrote:As far as bikes you add them in as part of a a core choice using a chaos warband. Depending on your points you could have a warband AND the raptor talon core (you can have as many core choices as you want I think), then add some spawn as your auxiliary choice, or something else. Princes are good in high point games, if you don't want a psycher Prince, Mark of Khorne is a good way to go, hell even Mark of nurgle for the higher toughness is nice.
You can't run marks when using Night Lords, nor use units where marks are auto equipped

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Re: Question about detachments: Night Lords

Post by Arnathos » Mon Feb 20, 2017 9:55 am

Adeptus007 wrote: You can't run marks when using Night Lords, nor use units where marks are auto equipped
Arnathos wrote:
Daemon Princes are no exception, they cannot take a mark of Chaos. They have a different special rule with completely different effects called "Daemon of Khorne/Nurgle/Tzeentch/Slaanesh", which they have to take one of. But they cannot take marks and haven't been able to since the 6th edition codex came out.
Though for nightlords, a winged princes of Tzeentch with the Stormbolt plate is the only real option, you might as well go Psyker, else he won't do much.

You could give the prince a weapon as well, but its not as effective.
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Re: Question about detachments: Night Lords

Post by Kovlovsky » Mon Feb 20, 2017 11:10 am

Adeptus007 wrote:Im not worried about the army being too fluffy, mostly because I see Night Lords as opportunistic so if the chance arises and they can get heavy fire power, I believe they would take it.
Yeah, Night Lords are opportunistic and like all legions, they had a very varied equipment selection before the Heresy. It's just that they aren't too much into daemons, so I wouldn't go too hard on daemon engines, but a few of them is okay. Tanks and Havocs are of course okay. The fluff tells us they have daemon princes, so you can of course take them.
Adeptus007 wrote:And I like the idea of the bikes, but how do they work with the Murder Talon formation, the night lords special one.
As for bikes, they work very well with Night Lords special rules because they get stealth. So, if you decide to jink with them, their jink save is 3+ instead of 4+. Furthermore, your special detachment gives you a further +1 to your cover saves that stacks with stealth. So your bikes now have a 2+ jink save which is fantastic! Also, this detachment allows you to reroll your charge distance. So, it goes well with a bike squad that is used as a delivery system for a close combat Chaos Lord on bike. Give a power weapon on the champion, 2 special weapons in the squad and you have a very strong retinue for your lord. As Kalidus has said, they are availlable in the Chaos Warband which is a core choice for your Murder Talon detachment.
Adeptus007 wrote:However I'm curious as to the formation u mentioned about the raptors being able to charge after a deep strike, I'm not very familiar with the formations/deployments.
Normally, a unit cannot charge the turn it has come on the board from reserve and units put in deep strike reserve are obviously in reserve. The Raptor formation special rules allows you to ignore this and you can charge with them the turn same they come from deep strike, but it counts as a disordonned charge (no bonus attack from the charge and you don't benefit from other bonuses gained from charging like the +1 strength of Furious Charge). They also reduce the enemy Ld by -2 if 2 units of this formation charge an enemy unit. Since Night Lords have the Fear special rule, it makes their job easier against Xenos, IG or non fearless chaos units. Being a disordonned charge hurts, but against a weakened unit or a shooty unit that you want to neutralise it can be handy.
Adeptus007 wrote:As for the suggestions of a daemon prince, I probably should have mentioned that I was including that but I'm not sure how I feel about the psycher part. I see it as a very expensive unit after flying, psycher 3, and other upgrades.
Arnathos has pretty much answered why the daemon prince with this equipment should be psyker. There are some disciplines that greatly improve their close combat prowess like Biomancy that would do great on this. Another favorite is rolling on Telepathy for Psychic Shriek which is a very powerful witchfire or the infamous invisibility. There are other good choices. I was once reluctant to invest into mastery levels in my daemon princes, but I realised that it was really powerful in a few batreps. Also, always give your daemon princes wings. They tend to get massacred when on the ground and have a hard time reaching the enemy.

Adeptus007 wrote:Anyway thank you for the continued support, and I should also mention I currently have no units this is just planning for my army.
We're happy to help! You did well to go ask experienced players for what you should do before starting buying units. A lot of new players go and take what looks cool and realise later they barely play with some units for many reasons. However, remember that in the end it's your army and you should take what pleases you even if it's not a competitive choice or something that isn't exactly fluffy. The important thing is for you to have fun and appreciate your army. A lot of new players seek "net lists" written by competitive player and later realise that it's not necessarilly what they want to play or that the opposing players don't have fun playing against such a list and this spoils the fun of everyone. If I had listened to what the competitive players were saying on internet, I would have never played the Thousand Sons (my army since 2001) !
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