Thousand sons list for new player

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Re: Thousand sons list for new player

Post by Koonitz » Sun Apr 09, 2017 10:36 am

Realgone wrote:The book needed if you plan on playing Thousand Sons by themselves are Chaos Space Marine codex* and the Wrath of Magnus supplement. Codex Demon and Curse of the Wulfen if you want to include demons.
Rules-wise, you could get the Traitor Legions supplement instead of Wrath of Magnus. It includes all of the same rules, however doesn't have the fluff or story of what happened during Magnus's return.
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Re: Thousand sons list for new player

Post by Alkuzar » Mon Apr 10, 2017 3:03 am

Valtsu wrote:I have formed a picture in my head that I would like to include the following units to my TS list for starters. I dont have the codexes yet so I am not sure if this is a legal list or not neither if its any good or not. But based on what I have read it should form a legal list:

2 x Sorcerers
2 x 10 Rubric Marines (2 x Rhinos)
1 x 5 Occult Termies (Land Raider?)
Magnus the Red

Magnus seems like a beast on the tabletop so he is a must on my list. Dont know if that makes any sense at this phase of starting the army but cant help it :D
With the setup you have choosen here, you are able to make Thousand Sons Grand Coven, that is an army setup listed in the Traitor Legions supplement with comes with extra rules and benefits for each detachment and the total army. With the following detachments:

War Cabal:

2x Sorcerer
2x 10 Rubric Marines + Rhino's
1x 5 Occult Terminators

Lord of the Legion:

Magnus the Red

Legion Armory:

Landraider.

The only thing you must decide for yourself how many points you want to use for your army list and for this you need the codex + supplement so you can figure out if the models you mentioned fit in the point list you had in mind.
But if you want to field this exactly either way, keep in mind points will go up fast. :)

Valtsu wrote:One more question about the codexes. Which codexes do I need to buy to get sufficient rules to properly play these guys on the tabletop?
As mentioned before by the people before me, you would need the Chaos Space Marine Codex and the Traitor Legions supplement.
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Re: Thousand sons list for new player

Post by Alkuzar » Mon Apr 10, 2017 10:48 pm

Valtsu wrote:So you need at least the CSM-codex and one supplement.. I was hoping that buying just one would be enough... :| So to make sure: Wrath of Magnus doesnt give anything more to the TS rules wise?
Because the Codex is older then the current models they got new rules that you can find either in Wrath of Magnus or Traitor Legions.
I don't have Wrath of Magnus myself, but as far i know the rules are exactly the same. Only difference is that Wrath of Magnus adds rules for including daemons and mostly fluff.
Valtsu wrote:I was thinking about going for about 1850-2000 points total.. Magnus takes a third of the points already but as I said he is a must to be included :wink:
I haven't done the calculations but based on what you want to field, i do think you already pass the 2000 point mark by just having the bare minimum upgrades for a fielding a Thousand Sons army, after that you still "need/want" to upgrade them in some cases. I think your getting closer to like 2500 for the units you want to field when upgraded. But if you get the supplement, you can calculate it for yourself to make sure of it.
Warhammer 40k:
106 power. / 1994 pts. Death Guard
33 power. / 667 pts. The Tainted
17 power. / 362 pts. Daemons of Nurgle

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Re: Thousand sons list for new player

Post by Kovlovsky » Tue Apr 11, 2017 12:25 am

The other posters pretty much covered everything, so I will just add a few more precisions on Wrath of Magnus vs Traitor Legions. I initially bought Wrath of Magnus in december the day it was availlable in my hobby store since TS are my army since I started in the hobby (around 2001), but I only bought Traitor Legions yesterday in the eventuality I want to play another legion at some point.

If you are a pure Thousand Sons player, the only thing that you miss by buying Traitor Legions over Wrath of Magnus are:

- The fluff
- Some really nice, but not that numerous original TS paintings. It includes also a nice selection of colour scheme for some Thousand Sons warbands. There are also infos on traditional TS markings and very short backgrounds for some warbands (it's like around 10 lines each I believe).
- More pictures of the miniatures.
- 3 game scenarios for the Thousand Sons including one that is a lot of fun, the two others being fun, but not as much original.

That's what you will miss for the CSM part of the book. Honestly, it's not much. I don't think it's worth the additional money that you will pay for WoM.

It's especially the case because the fluff is terrible. It's basically a copy/paste of the narrative structure of the novel Battle of the Fang in a way that is as much shamefully biased toward the Space Wolves, but with much inferior writing and excitement. Even though Battle of Fang was full of Deus ex Machina to save the Space Wolves from their otherwise inevitable and crushing defeat, at least the author (Christ Wraight) managed to make his writing relatively exciting and the action scenes vivid. This isn't the case in Wrath of Magnus. The action is rather boring and it's painful to read about the Thousand Sons consistantly outmanoeuvering their Space Wolves foes, but always seeing the later escaping their fate through god (read the author) intervention. I was so bored that I had a hard time pushing myself to finish reading WoM. In comparison, I read Battle of the Fang avidly even though I often crindged to the blatant pro Space Wolves view just because the action scenes were great and some TS characters were well written. Also don't hope to see interesting characterisation for Ahriman or Magnus here. They only have a few lines of text each and they sound like Saturday morning villains. Ahriman also disappears from the narrative as quickly as he entered it and in a very unceremonious way. If you want great books about Ahriman, find his trilogy instead, especially Ahriman: Exile. So, overall, the author of WoM completely missed his target audience (Thousand Sons and Tzeentch Daemons players).

The very start of the book has a pursuit scene that is so poorly written and absurd that it becomes comical to the point I was hearing an humorous pursuit song in my head: https://youtu.be/ZnHmskwqCCQ. :D If you want to read more on how much the book fails at being interesting read this very comple article (spoiler warning): http://thegoodthebadtheinsulting.blogsp ... -lore.html.

Outside CSM stuff, WoM also has new rules for Tzeentch daemons. You get:

- A new "Decurion" detachment for a Tzeentch daemon army. The bonuses it gives are underwhelming, but it doesn't ask too many models to work, so there is that.
- A Tzeentch Warpstorm table.
- New rules for Pink Horrors (they brought back their separation in two smaller horrors when they die), Blue Horrors and Brimstone Horrors.
- 3 new formations. There is a very good one for Kairos Fateweaver and 1-3 Lords of Change, a good one for Tzeentch Heralds, a decent one for the new Brimstone Horrors and an Exalted Flamer and an extremely situational one for the Blue Scribes and Blue Horrors.
- 3 game scenarios for Tzentch Daemons that look pretty fun.
- Updated Tzeentch rewards
- New Tzeentch Tactical Objectives.

So, if you are interested into expanding into daemons, which is no longer necessary to play TS effectively, then Wrath of Magnus can become attractive for you. Otherwise, I don't think it's worth it really. But it's your call. Although the fluff was a major disappointment for me, I don't regret buying it however. It's because I'm a huge TS fan and I'm glad having the very nice art, the info on the symbolism of the TS decorations and I have some Tzeentch daemons so the new rules are good for me. But if you're not a huge fan like me and don't plan to buy some Tzeentch daemons, it's not necessary to go with WoM in my opinion.
Alkuzar wrote: I haven't done the calculations but based on what you want to field, i do think you already pass the 2000 point mark by just having the bare minimum upgrades for a fielding a Thousand Sons army, after that you still "need/want" to upgrade them in some cases. I think your getting closer to like 2500 for the units you want to field when upgraded. But if you get the supplement, you can calculate it for yourself to make sure of it.
If the OP take the army he was suggering barebones including the Land Raider and the Rhinos, I get to 1650 pts. If you start upgrading the stuff, you easily go over 2000 pts. My suggestion is to drop the Land Raider or at least a Rubric squad if you take Magnus with you. The later needs a few spare Warp charges to be effective so the points are better spent at pushing your sorcerers at ML3.

If you give a Disc of Tzeentch and the Astral Grimoire to one of the sorcerers, he can then join the terminators and make them jump infantry with the Grimoire. This way, they keep mobile and you save 170 pts over taking a Land Raider as a ride for your terminators. The problem, however, is that you will have to find another way to have your Auxiliaries filled for your Grand Coven detachment. A Predator might do it nicely. I like fielding them with the Autocannon turret and Lascannon sponsons.
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Re: Thousand sons list for new player

Post by Alkuzar » Tue Apr 11, 2017 8:51 am

Kovlovsky wrote:
Alkuzar wrote: I haven't done the calculations but based on what you want to field, i do think you already pass the 2000 point mark by just having the bare minimum upgrades for a fielding a Thousand Sons army, after that you still "need/want" to upgrade them in some cases. I think your getting closer to like 2500 for the units you want to field when upgraded. But if you get the supplement, you can calculate it for yourself to make sure of it.
If the OP take the army he was suggering barebones including the Land Raider and the Rhinos, I get to 1650 pts. If you start upgrading the stuff, you easily go over 2000 pts. My suggestion is to drop the Land Raider or at least a Rubric squad if you take Magnus with you. The later needs a few spare Warp charges to be effective so the points are better spent at pushing your sorcerers at ML3.
I calculated it up to 1880 with the book at hand. That is barebones with MoT on the sorcerers, because you have to take that on them for fielding a TS army from the book.

2x Sorcerer with mark of Tzeench
2x 10 Rubric Marines + Rhino's
1x 5 Scarab Termies + Landraider
1x Magnus
Valtsu wrote:Thanks again!
I will propably dump the Land Raider then... Terminators jumping around sounds awesome! :D I have the Dark Vengeance chaos units now so is there any effective way of taking advantage of them in a TS army? For example cultists or helbrute. I would like to keep the points at max 2000. So I am open to make needed changes to keep the points within those limits. I still would like to have as many as possible of the original units I mentioned included keeping in mind the required upgrades to make them scary for the opponent. EDIT: So just checked the requirements for the Grand coven and Helbrute could fill up the required auxiliary choice, but based on what I have seen is that Helbrutes are not that good in general. But that could just be there to fulfill the aux choice cuz the main focus is on the psykers casting their spells anyways. I could go with that to start with and see if I want to get something different in the future.
I'm not a fan of using Helbrutes. And if you want to focus on Psykers, you can also choose to get a Warcoven as Aux. choice. This will let you bring a minimum of 4 extra sorcerers.
Warhammer 40k:
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33 power. / 667 pts. The Tainted
17 power. / 362 pts. Daemons of Nurgle

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Re: Thousand sons list for new player

Post by Kovlovsky » Tue Apr 11, 2017 10:51 am

Alkuzar wrote:
Kovlovsky wrote:
Alkuzar wrote: I haven't done the calculations but based on what you want to field, i do think you already pass the 2000 point mark by just having the bare minimum upgrades for a fielding a Thousand Sons army, after that you still "need/want" to upgrade them in some cases. I think your getting closer to like 2500 for the units you want to field when upgraded. But if you get the supplement, you can calculate it for yourself to make sure of it.
If the OP take the army he was suggering barebones including the Land Raider and the Rhinos, I get to 1650 pts. If you start upgrading the stuff, you easily go over 2000 pts. My suggestion is to drop the Land Raider or at least a Rubric squad if you take Magnus with you. The later needs a few spare Warp charges to be effective so the points are better spent at pushing your sorcerers at ML3.
I calculated it up to 1880 with the book at hand. That is barebones with MoT on the sorcerers, because you have to take that on them for fielding a TS army from the book.

2x Sorcerer with mark of Tzeench
2x 10 Rubric Marines + Rhino's
1x 5 Scarab Termies + Landraider
1x Magnus
There is a little misunderstanding here. When I said "barebones", I meant that I took only basic 5 strong rubric squads with no additional members or special equipment outside the Rhinos. If you had 5 bodies to each, then yes, you will probably get at 1880 or something like that. And yes, I added the Mark of Tzeentch on both sorcerers since it's obligatory for TS. I know my army very well, being a TS player since 2001. ;)
Valtsu wrote:Thanks again!

Ok, good to know because the fluff was one of the biggest reasons to get WoM, but now I think that saving the extra money for other units sounds like a good choice. Traitor Legions is the way to go! Thats even a really sad thing to hear that the fluff fails so bad cuz thats one of the charms of 40k...
Yeah, I was very much disappointed. Unfortunately, Space Wolves are pretty much automatic Mary Sues when they are included in any narrative. GW never punishes them for using terrible tactics such as frontal assaults and they never really lose. I feel they wasted a very nice opportunity to bring some life in the Space Wolf and Thousand Sons narrative again. GW hasn't been very much inspired lately. Fall of Cadia was especially dreadful and sadly pretty much confirmed that Abaddon can't win without sheer luck. :(
Valtsu wrote:I will propably dump the Land Raider then... Terminators jumping around sounds awesome! :D I have the Dark Vengeance chaos units now so is there any effective way of taking advantage of them in a TS army? For example cultists or helbrute. I would like to keep the points at max 2000. So I am open to make needed changes to keep the points within those limits. I still would like to have as many as possible of the original units I mentioned included keeping in mind the required upgrades to make them scary for the opponent. EDIT: So just checked the requirements for the Grand coven and Helbrute could fill up the required auxiliary choice, but based on what I have seen is that Helbrutes are not that good in general. But that could just be there to fulfill the aux choice cuz the main focus is on the psykers casting their spells anyways. I could go with that to start with and see if I want to get something different in the future.
For using the Dark Vengence units (Chosen, one Chaos Lord, the Cultists and the Helbrute), only the Helbrute fits in the Grand Coven. However, Helbrutes aren't that great without a formation and the good ones need a lot of stuff to be legal. And one of the formations in the older dataslate for Helbrutes need so many of them than it will probably be one third of your army and not feel TS anymore. A predator would be a better option to fill your auxiliary choice as cheaply as possible. Like I said, my favorite configuration is with the Autocannon turret and Lascannon sponsons. It's a rather cheap and multipurpose choice that will serve you well.

For the rest of them, you would have to either field a Combined Arms Detachment (CAD) or another CSM formations like the Chaos Warband alongside your army. A TS CAD can be quite effective because it gives you access to some good units that cover some TS weaknesses like the lack of conventional antitank, but it works better with Daemons allies (Pink Horrors and Herald as Warp charge batteries) and you have said that you aren't planning to expand in them, so for now, I think you will get more with a Grand Coven. Chosen are better with special weapons like 5 meltaguns or 5 plasma guns anyway. Close Combat Chosen like in the DV set are too expensive for such squishy models to the point that Terminators are better for about the same price. A Tzeentch Chaos Lord with a disc of Tzeentch can be quite a lot of fun though.

Like Alkuzar suggested, if you want to focus on psykers, the War Coven would be a good choice. It's a decent formation with 4 sorcerers minimum. That will probably force you to remove some bodies in one of your Rubric squad to have the points for them, but it's worth it. I like giving them ML3, a spell familliar each and a disc if possible. If you don't have points for the discs, just put them with one of the rubric squad as meat shields and get a ride in the Rhino. The Thousand Sons' two main strengths are psychic might and AP3 firepower, so investing in psykers is always a good idea, especially when you have Magnus on the board. You could go for the Rehati War Sect, but bringing Magnus + 3 Exalted Sorcers would take a big chunk of your army. I wouldn't do this immediately when starting playing this army.
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Re: Thousand sons list for new player

Post by Alkuzar » Tue Apr 11, 2017 11:02 am

Kovlovsky wrote:
Alkuzar wrote:
Kovlovsky wrote:
If the OP take the army he was suggering barebones including the Land Raider and the Rhinos, I get to 1650 pts. If you start upgrading the stuff, you easily go over 2000 pts. My suggestion is to drop the Land Raider or at least a Rubric squad if you take Magnus with you. The later needs a few spare Warp charges to be effective so the points are better spent at pushing your sorcerers at ML3.
I calculated it up to 1880 with the book at hand. That is barebones with MoT on the sorcerers, because you have to take that on them for fielding a TS army from the book.

2x Sorcerer with mark of Tzeench
2x 10 Rubric Marines + Rhino's
1x 5 Scarab Termies + Landraider
1x Magnus
There is a little misunderstanding here. When I said "barebones", I meant that I took only basic 5 strong rubric squads with no additional members or special equipment outside the Rhinos. If you had 5 bodies to each, then yes, you will probably get at 1880 or something like that. And yes, I added the Mark of Tzeentch on both sorcerers since it's obligatory for TS. I know my army very well, being a TS player since 2001. ;)
Ah, then yes. I was keeping in mind the 2x 10 model units the OP wanted, and i was thinking you did the same. ;)
Not barebones as the minimum models needed, but barebones upgrade wise.
Warhammer 40k:
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17 power. / 362 pts. Daemons of Nurgle

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Re: Thousand sons list for new player

Post by Alkuzar » Tue Apr 11, 2017 1:18 pm

Valtsu wrote:Ok, based on what you guys are suggesting combined to the things I want I will represent the following:

Thousand Sons Grand Coven:

1. Core
War Cabal
2 x Sorcerers
1 x 10 Rubric marines in a rhino (or split up into two groups of 5)
1 x 5 Occult termies

1. Command
Lord of the legion
Magnus

1. Aux
War Coven
4 x Sorcerers

2. Aux
Legion armoury
1 x Predator

First of all this list is completely different from what Im used to with my earlier collections especially cuz there is so few bodies so went little "crazy" with it :D Secondly is this list legal to begin with? Just to make sure I understood correctly how the Grand Coven works. Would a list like this ever work on the tabletop and win some games? Im not a competitive player and prefer fluffy lists but still it would be nice to win once in a while :P The list above still tends to be really expensive points wise, doesnt it?
It is a legal list, but if it will do good in battle. I have to say, that i have no idea. More because i'm also a relative new player to the game in general.
And TS is an expensive army pointwise plus you insist to take magnus who alone takes up a third of the point total you want to use.
But like you I also would want to use Magnus if i played TS. I have been looking into making a TS army myself, but I found out that for a "decent" TS army, I wouldn't go below 2500 points in my opinion.
Warhammer 40k:
106 power. / 1994 pts. Death Guard
33 power. / 667 pts. The Tainted
17 power. / 362 pts. Daemons of Nurgle

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Re: Thousand sons list for new player

Post by Kovlovsky » Tue Apr 11, 2017 1:27 pm

Yes, it's hard to field a lot of bodies when you bring Magnus. Thousand Sons armies usually don't have a lot of bodies on the board unless you bring the Lost and Damned formation alongside your force or bring a CAD with big packs of cultists. Another way to bring relatively more guys is the Tzaangor Warherd. It's a decent formation and probably the only way to make Tzaangors worth it. It can be a nice way to protect a CC focused Exalted Sorcerer or having some more board control. With the TS you generally have to choose between bringing a decent number of bodies or focusing on psychic might instead. The two ways actually work pretty well on the field, but playing the psychic game more heavily calls for a little more experience with psychic disciplines and managing warp charges. But it's a lot of fun and quite unique. Only the Tzeentch daemons and Grey Knights armies can really compete with us in terms of psychic might.
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