Thousand sons list for new player

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Sevastus
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Thousand sons list for new player

Post by Sevastus » Sun Feb 12, 2017 8:46 am

Hi all

For the few years I have done nothing but read about the 40k universe which has been very enjoyable but I have finally decided to get in to the tabletop game, my favourite character in the 40k universe has to be Ahriman and so naturally I have been drawn to the thousand sons for my first army. I have done a bit of reading and have looked at trying to make up a list but ultimately I thought it would make more sense to ask you guys who can advise me far better and ensure that I set myself up with a reasonably balanced force to learn with rather than making a mess of it myself and becoming disheartened early on. I definitely want to include Ahriman, I am looking to buy 2000 points worth of models as a starting base and for now I want to keep it pure thousand sons just to begin with. Thanks in advance for the advice guys.

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Re: Thousand sons list for new player

Post by Geradox » Sun Feb 12, 2017 9:29 am

For a 2k game i would look into getting a war cabal with a maulerfiend or a war coven with the lord of the legion being good ol' magnus cuz why not.

So at the most basic you would need
1 ahriman
2 rubic marine boxes
1 scarab occult box
1 sorccerer/termie sor kit
2 rhinos
1 land raider
1 magnus box
1 mauler fiend box

The upgrades and everything is yours to choose
But i believe this could be a fairly powerful core for a tsons army. Though granted im not the best person to ask as i mostly play either khorne or word bearers. There are probally tons of other better tsons players on the forum whose opinions will carry more weight
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Re: Thousand sons list for new player

Post by Sevastus » Mon Feb 13, 2017 11:11 am

This is what I had kind of come up with myself so far, feel free to pull it apart and point out any really dumb selection I have made, I need to learn after all :D

Ahriman , with disc of Tzeentch - 260 pts

Exalted sorcerer, with disc of Tzeentch, mast lev 3 and astral grimoire - 245 pts
Exalted sorcerer, with Disc of Tzeentch, mast lev 3 - 215pts
Exalted sorcerer, mast lev 3, and helm of the third eye - 205 pts

Rubric marines x10, 1x soul reaper cannon and 2 x warp flamers with Icon of flame -319 pts
Rubric marines x10, 1x soul reaper cannon and icon of flame - 305 pts

Scarab occult terminators x5 with soul reaper cannon and hellfyre missile rack - 300pts

So that puts me at 1850 with 150 points to go, does it look ok so far or is it looking a bit of a disaster?

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Re: Thousand sons list for new player

Post by Geradox » Mon Feb 13, 2017 11:44 am

I would prolly work in 2 sorccerers so you can run the tsons war cabal with the war coven the benefits from the grand coven make it worth working in 2 normal sorcs (i only say them cuz they cheap to add
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Re: Thousand sons list for new player

Post by illapa13 » Tue Feb 14, 2017 9:52 am

Remember you need to take at least 1 auxiliary you're already at 1850 that gives you only 150 for auxiliary. I went the other route I made a Sekhmet formation.

Ahriman with a disk, 3 scarab occult units, 3 tzaangor units + exhalted sorc to make a warherd, and 3 more exhalted sorc in a war coven for about 1900 after adding upgrades

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Re: Thousand sons list for new player

Post by Sevastus » Tue Feb 14, 2017 10:50 am

illapa13 wrote:Remember you need to take at least 1 auxiliary you're already at 1850 that gives you only 150 for auxiliary. I went the other route I made a Sekhmet formation.

Ahriman with a disk, 3 scarab occult units, 3 tzaangor units + exhalted sorc to make a warherd, and 3 more exhalted sorc in a war coven for about 1900 after adding upgrades
If I am reading the wrath of Magnus book correctly what I listed in my last post fits all the requirements for the war cabal formation, so could I maybe just add either a chaos predator or a hellbrute for my 1 auxiliary unit?

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Re: Thousand sons list for new player

Post by illapa13 » Tue Feb 14, 2017 1:04 pm

You did meet the requirements. When I looked at it Thousand Sons have 2 weaknesses. No dedicated anti armor, and small numbers of units. The 2 best auxiliaries to "fix" this are the Tzaangor warherd for cannon fodder or bring some sort of Lascannon tank/Daemonengine with anti armor.

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Re: Thousand sons list for new player

Post by Kovlovsky » Tue Feb 14, 2017 1:56 pm

Hello Sevastus! I'm glad you selected Thousand Sons! We used to be so few in numbers, but now I've seen prospective players like never before. It shows how much they only needed a decent update and new shiny models to become very popular. Until recently, the TS were often temporarily out of stock on the GW canadian and US website!
Sevastus wrote:This is what I had kind of come up with myself so far, feel free to pull it apart and point out any really dumb selection I have made, I need to learn after all :D

Ahriman , with disc of Tzeentch - 260 pts

Exalted sorcerer, with disc of Tzeentch, mast lev 3 and astral grimoire - 245 pts
Exalted sorcerer, with Disc of Tzeentch, mast lev 3 - 215pts
Exalted sorcerer, mast lev 3, and helm of the third eye - 205 pts

Rubric marines x10, 1x soul reaper cannon and 2 x warp flamers with Icon of flame -319 pts
Rubric marines x10, 1x soul reaper cannon and icon of flame - 305 pts

Scarab occult terminators x5 with soul reaper cannon and hellfyre missile rack - 300pts

So that puts me at 1850 with 150 points to go, does it look ok so far or is it looking a bit of a disaster?
Sevastus wrote:
illapa13 wrote:Remember you need to take at least 1 auxiliary you're already at 1850 that gives you only 150 for auxiliary. I went the other route I made a Sekhmet formation.

Ahriman with a disk, 3 scarab occult units, 3 tzaangor units + exhalted sorc to make a warherd, and 3 more exhalted sorc in a war coven for about 1900 after adding upgrades
If I am reading the wrath of Magnus book correctly what I listed in my last post fits all the requirements for the war cabal formation, so could I maybe just add either a chaos predator or a hellbrute for my 1 auxiliary unit?

For the War Cabal to be legal, you need to have at least a leading sorcerer and a second additional sorcerer. I don't see either of them your list. The leader can be either an ordinary sorcerer, an exalted sorcerer, a daemon prince while the additional sorcerer must be either a regular one or an exalted sorcerer.

This list also lacks an auxiliary if you want to go for a Grand Coven, which isn't obligatory, but is pretty handy to mitigate the threat of bad perils of the Warp (and trust me, it's useful. I recently lost my exalted sorcerer right in the first turn by rolling a 1 on a peril on the first spell I manifested and then failing my leadership test on Ld 10 :mrgreen: ). You don't have to go for expensive ones. A single predator or daemon engine does the job.

Other than that, I suggest you to drop the Icons of Flames everywhere and the warp flamers on the rubric marines. Warp flamers are decent against xenos and hordes in general, but they are rarely worth it against MEQs except when used en masse, but there is always the risk that the guy will be lucky with his saves and then suceed his toughness test and get FnP 6+ . Against MEQs, the flamers are actually a downgrade since you pay a lot for AP3 bolters and then you pay even more to drop it to AP4 and not garanteeing that you kill what you wound on top of maybe enhancing them. Againt Orks, IG, Tyranids, Tau and Eldars, this can be worth it although they are exceedingly expensive since one of the TS weaknesses has always been hordes. Last thing, in my opinion, if you are going to bring flamers, you should do it decisively like by having 3 to 4 in a squad and attaching to them a character with the Helm of the Third Eye. That's a great overwatch potential and it should be enough to wipe out an enemy squad in one go as long as they have 4+ saves or worse.

With the remaining points you have, I would do two thing: 1st, getting two sorcerers for your War Cabal to be legal. Secondly, I would take an auxiliary. Personally, I like taking Predators since it covers our general lack of regular antitank shooting. That would make it possible to run your army as a War Cabal. The third thing I would do is giving spell familliars to as many ML3 psykers. Even manifesting powers on 3+ isn't always sufficient. Rerolling failed psychic tests on of that makes your powers going off very reliably.

My last point about your list is about the Ahriman's Exiles formation. It's a great formation, but I personnally have realised that it's really hard to field it under 2000 pts unless you really strip off the other components of your army. This is something to think about. I would suggest to either go up to 2000 pts if you want to field it or consider using only a single rubric squad and use the points to flesh out your psykers (ML3, spell familliars and invulnerable saves in that order of priority) and depending of the auxiliary choice you take, flesh it out too. Another option would be to bring Ahriman as the leader of the War Cabal and take the War Coven formation instead of the Ahriman's Exiles. It's less flexible about your selection of disciplines, but if you bring only sorcerers in it, you end up economising a lot of points and this formation is already an auxiliary choice so you don't have to take a predator or daemon engine "tax" to make it work. The cost would a less reliable Ahriman and the already mentionned loss of flexibility of selection of discipline for your War Coven's sorcerers, but you will have more points to bring upgrades or bodies.

As for the to buy list, here is what I suggest for starting:
  • - Ahriman
    - One Rubric Marines box
    - One Scarab Occult Terminator box
    - One Exalted Sorcerer box
With these, you can bring a War Cabal which is probably the most basis army you can bring outside a CAD and will play well at low points.

For expansion, it will then depend on what you chose to take as an auxiliary choice, but I think you can't really go wrong with:
  • - Another Exalted Sorcerer box (A true TS player has never enough of them and we have to admit that our formations asks for a lot of them).
    - Another Rubric Marine box (having more boots on the ground is never a bad thing).
For the rest it will depend. You want to bring the Tzaangor Warherd? Buy at least 3 boxes of Tzangors (eventually, you might want to be able to field at least one of the squad as 20 strong). You want to have a vehicle squadron? Take one Predator or Vindicator (you probably eventually want 3 of one type to benefit from the squadron bonus). I would suggest you to take an Heldrake at some point. Although you might think that you're already saturated with AP3, the Heldrake is still invaluable since he can vector strike flying things and a torrent flamer is very flexible and always ignores cover which can be handy sometimes.

I hope this will help you! Despite what haters say, my personal experience and that of some other players on this forum (like Imperia) is that, while our models are still very expensive, the new update made us much more viable and powerful. I've seen a lot of success recently. So, don't let the negativity on internet influence you. Just experiment with the psychic disciplines including the new ones and you will start finding great combos. Personally, I found Divination, Geomortis, Ectomancy, Sinistrum, Heretech and of course the classical Telepathy and Biomancy to be particularly worthwhile and powerful.
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Re: Thousand sons list for new player

Post by illapa13 » Tue Feb 14, 2017 2:40 pm

You can bring Ahriman/Magnus instead of a sorceror/daemon Prince as a leader for either of the 2 core formations

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Re: Thousand sons list for new player

Post by Kovlovsky » Tue Feb 14, 2017 3:03 pm

illapa13 wrote:You can bring Ahriman/Magnus instead of a sorceror/daemon Prince as a leader for either of the 2 core formations
It's true for the Sehkmet Conclave, but not for the War Cabal. The only special character that is an option for the War Cabal is Ahriman. All other choices are generic characters. Also, I wouldn't get Magnus too early when building a TS collection. He's extremely powerful, but hard to field effectively in games under 1850 unless you go for the recent tournament list that is powerful, but not very TS like. If you are going to bring rubrics and terminators, he's much easier to field at 2000 pts. I see him more as final piece of a TS army than a viable early purchase personally.
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Re: Thousand sons list for new player

Post by Sevastus » Tue Feb 14, 2017 5:28 pm

illapa13 wrote:You did meet the requirements. When I looked at it Thousand Sons have 2 weaknesses. No dedicated anti armor, and small numbers of units. The 2 best auxiliaries to "fix" this are the Tzaangor warherd for cannon fodder or bring some sort of Lascannon tank/Daemonengine with anti armor.

Yes that makes sense, I am leaning towards a predator with twin linked Lascannon, I can just about fit one of those in.

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Re: Thousand sons list for new player

Post by Sevastus » Wed Feb 15, 2017 11:35 am

[quote="Kovlovsky"]Hello Sevastus! I'm glad you selected Thousand Sons! We used to be so few in numbers, but now I've seen prospective players like never before. It shows how much they only needed a decent update and new shiny models to become very popular. Until recently, the TS were often temporarily out of stock on the GW canadian and US website!

Thanks Kovlovsky! Your info has given me a much better idea of where I want to be, I am going to start out with a war cabal, grabbed my models today
Ahriman
Exalted sorcerers box
2 boxes of rubric marines
1 box of scarab occult terminators
1 chaos predator

Super excited and can't wait to get these guys together.
The point you made about the warpflamers the squad that had 2 in it I had intended to attach an exalted sorcerer with the helm of the third eye to so that it could over watch, would that make them worth having in there? or still not worth the extra 14 points?

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Re: Thousand sons list for new player

Post by Kovlovsky » Thu Feb 16, 2017 11:51 am

Sevastus wrote:
Kovlovsky wrote:Hello Sevastus! I'm glad you selected Thousand Sons! We used to be so few in numbers, but now I've seen prospective players like never before. It shows how much they only needed a decent update and new shiny models to become very popular. Until recently, the TS were often temporarily out of stock on the GW canadian and US website!
Thanks Kovlovsky! Your info has given me a much better idea of where I want to be, I am going to start out with a war cabal, grabbed my models today
Ahriman
Exalted sorcerers box
2 boxes of rubric marines
1 box of scarab occult terminators
1 chaos predator

Super excited and can't wait to get these guys together.
The point you made about the warpflamers the squad that had 2 in it I had intended to attach an exalted sorcerer with the helm of the third eye to so that it could over watch, would that make them worth having in there? or still not worth the extra 14 points?
I'm happy to help! It seems that you have a great base for your army! You will already be able to play a Grand Coven with these even at relatively modest point levels.

As for your question, I have to admit that I haven't experimented with the flamers at this point, but they are basically the same weapon than what the Chaos Daemons' Flamers of Tzeentch have. My experience with them is that they are effective when used en masse because you want to kill as much as possible the unit that you target. This is because the Warp Flame special rule ask for the unit to make a single toughness test after casualties have been removed. If the unit doesn't pass it, they suffer a further D3 wounds with no save of any kind allowed. However, if they do pass it, they gain Feel no Pain 6+ or +1 to their FnP if they already have it. That means that if you wiff your rolls, you might end making the enemy unit more survivable. The overwatch is tempting, but I would say that you might want as much as 4 in the squad to make it really worth it. Remember that you lose AP3 bolters by taking flamers and they are quite expensive. In fact, I believe they are overpriced since you lose the AP3 weapon that you already paying a premium to get.

However, the Heavy Warp Flamers that is an option on the terminators is great especially on a deepstriking terminator squad with a terminator sorcerer for both cleaning up an enemy unit before charging and overwatching if you get charged during the opponent's turn. A S5 AP3 flamer isn't something to be triffled with. If you get a second terminator squad at some point, this could be an idea to give them this instead of the Soulreaper Cannon.

Back to the norma warp flamers, in the end, I think the decisive factor is what army you will face most often. Statistically, most 40k players play Space Marines of some kind. Against Space Marines, your bolters will be MUCH more useful because they will ignore their armor saves while the flamers won't and this make it risky with the Warp Flame rule. However, if you realise that the local players play a lot of xenos armies or the Imperial Guard, they will be worth it. Xenos and IG don't have a lot of 3+ and 2+ saves on their units and some of them have horde armies (Orks, Tyranids, infantry heavy IG, etc.). Against them, the flamers will be crazy deadly, so having one squad with a few of them will be useful. Against those armies that are close combat heavy, having one squad that can put a powerful wall of flame (with a character with the Helm of the 3rd Eye), this will be very important because rubric marines are bad in CC and killing a bunch of models before the shock can save you. But against marines, 7 pts per flamer is way too much for what they will do and I think the bolters are just plain better.

If you face marines and want a flamer, then I suggest you to give one of your sorcerer a Burning Brand of Skallathrax from the CSM book. It's a S4 AP3 torrent flamer. If you put it on a sorcerer with a disc of Tzeentch, you can roam around killing stuff with it. There are quite a few psychic discipline that can improve is suvivability a lot even on its own (Ectomancy has a power that gives the psyker a 3++ save which can be improved to 2+ if you cast a blessing like Force on yourself or there is a power that allows him to teleport away from a close combat by example; Sinistrum has a power that allow the psyker and his unit to reroll all his saves; and you have the classical Biomancy that have powers that make your tougher or give you FnP and Eternal Warrior). Or join him with Chaos Spawns or bikers if you want bodyguards that are about as fast as him (the later is only possible if you play a CAD). Or simply put him in a unit of Rubric or terminators to improve their firepower. The terminators aren't slow and purposeful and can therefore overwatch or pair the rubrics with a sorcerer with the helm if you want the overwatch with them and your sorcerer. I think this is a much better option if you face marines.
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Re: Thousand sons list for new player

Post by Zhidkov » Sun Mar 05, 2017 9:00 am

Guys, thank you for this thread - one of the best for the T-sons!
I am a new Chaos player, so some of their rules are still tricky... really need you wisdom, sirs!

1. Am I right that using Chaos Boon table is obligate? So once I get 21-22 - bye-bye Ahriman?
2. I can't understand who can take Chaos Artefacts.
- Am I right that Ahriman and Magnus already have their artefacts and they can't take any others?
- Am I right that being Champion of Chaos is not enough to take Chaos Rewards and Chaos Artefacts - Aspiring Sorcerer and Scarab Occult Sorcerer can't take them?
- Am I right that Dark Apostles and Sorcerer can't take Mark of Chaos and can't take Chaos Rewards and Chaos Artefacts? If not, where is the place in any codex allowing them to do so?

Thank you in advance! Really puzzled with that Relic thing...
With all my sympathy and respect :)

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Re: Thousand sons list for new player

Post by Kovlovsky » Sun Mar 05, 2017 12:30 pm

Zhidkov wrote:Guys, thank you for this thread - one of the best for the T-sons!
I am a new Chaos player, so some of their rules are still tricky... really need you wisdom, sirs!
Hey! Glad to see another T-Sons player! And yes, Thousand Sons are relatively complicated since they are quite unconventional, so it's only natural that some things aren't clear.
Zhidkov wrote:1. Am I right that using Chaos Boon table is obligate? So once I get 21-22 - bye-bye Ahriman?
Yes, you don't have a choice. When Tzeentch bestow his gifts, you have to take them! If he believes that you would be more efficient with an additional arm, you get an additional arm. If he thinks that you should be punished by becoming a mass of screaming flesh, that's going to happen. :P Joke aside, the rule is written in a way that states that you have to do it. They don't say that you may do it. So, you don't have a choice, for the best or the worse.
Zhidkov wrote:2. I can't understand who can take Chaos Artefacts.
It's relatively simple in fact. You have to go in the army list starting at pg. 90 of the Codex: Chaos Space Marines and you look under the character's profile, generally on the right part of the text. The options will be listed there. If a character can take equipment from a category, it will be stated there. Artefacts of Chaos is the category that you are looking for. If it's there, you can take artefacts from that category, otherwise, you can't.
Zhidkov wrote:- Am I right that Ahriman and Magnus already have their artefacts and they can't take any others?
Yes, you are. Special characters cannot take equipment other that what they start equiped with unless their profile in the army list give them the right to do so. In the case of Ahriman, his new profile found in the Wrath of Magnus book or the Traitor Legion's supplement now allows you to take a Disc of Tzeentch for him (the supplement contains everything about Thousand Sons, so no need to get Wrath of Magnus unless you want the art, fluff and the new Tzeentch daemons rules). This is the only exception. Magnus must be taken as he is.
Zhidkov wrote: - Am I right that being Champion of Chaos is not enough to take Chaos Rewards and Chaos Artefacts - Aspiring Sorcerer and Scarab Occult Sorcerer can't take them?
Yes, you are. It must be stated in the unit profile that they can take equipment from the Artefacts of Chaos and Rewards of Chaos categories and they both can't. The Chaos Boon Table is a whole different thing.
Zhidkov wrote:- Am I right that Dark Apostles and Sorcerer can't take Mark of Chaos and can't take Chaos Rewards and Chaos Artefacts? If not, where is the place in any codex allowing them to do so?
No, you are wrong on that account. Their profiles in the army list clearly state that they are allowed to select equipment from these categories. It's on pg. 94 of the codex normally.
Zhidkov wrote:Thank you in advance! Really puzzled with that Relic thing...
With all my sympathy and respect :)
Np! We were all puzzled by many things about 40k when we were new at it... ;) It was a pleasure to help you! If you have more questions, feel free to ask them. We're here to help.
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