Faith too random?

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Kris Knives
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Faith too random?

Post by Kris Knives » Tue Dec 20, 2011 9:52 am

I was in my local game store the other day picking up my first box of nids and a paint set when I got to talking with the store owner about the Sister of Battle. I explained that I had wanted to start collecting them but since they are hard to come by I had settled for Nids and we got into a long conversation about the Sisters.

One point he brought up was that a lot of people dislike Faith as being too random and luck based which is why they nerfed it a bit in the WD updates. Now I'm new so I know jack all about....everything really.....so I couldn't say one way or another. However I know the necron reconstruction protocols are also random dice rolls, so I wasn't sure if that really why people don't play the sisters. He suggested the GW should have reduced the randomness of faith rather than reduce faith's effects.

I honestly don't know but since I do want to play sisters I just thought I'd open up a discussion on Faith, how random it is and its effect on the game here and see what people say so next time I go in I can have an informed opinion.

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Re: Faith too random?

Post by azzerath » Tue Dec 20, 2011 11:33 am

My wife plays Sisters of Battle. She really preferred the older rule book. While most of the game has a random element, there was situations where it was near impossible to fail on some faith rolls. It was hard to keep track of which powers needed to roll what. Some required you to roll above the number of models in the unit, and others below.

This new system is much easier to remember, but now each unit has a different power

For example take Seraphim, they simultaneously nerfed them (in CC) and improved the shooting capabilities of the pistols. They improved the hand flamers, but reduced its strength. Overall they are much better in shooting, now throw in their faith power and you can really pile on the wounds. But if the shooting doesn't bring down the enemy, they are pretty meh in CC.

So it is definitely different, however to say the new system is less random. Well for some powers yes, and others no.

Sisters is a hard army to start at the moment. First you have to actually get the rules for them, which takes getting 2 WD issues that the first one sold out in 2 days online and the second sold out the day it was available. Then the models are mostly metal, and most stores don't stock them anymore.

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Re: Faith too random?

Post by Kris Knives » Tue Dec 20, 2011 12:34 pm

Yea I've been told how hard they are, but that is fine with me. I've decided to get Tyranids and Sisters so until I can pull together and paint a full army of Sisters I can just use some unpainted Tyranids as they are very easy to get at the store. Has your wife been enjoying the new sisters I know you said she prefered the old but does that mean she really dislikes the new?

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Re: Faith too random?

Post by azzerath » Tue Dec 20, 2011 1:07 pm

She does like the new ones, especially now that all the rules are 5th edition. For example Seraphim used to have their own hit and run rules and the like, so it was a bit more complicated. They had a few quirks that were annoying to keep track of.

We think they kept the core ideals of the army intact, and made faith simpler, and brought the point levels to the 5th edition levels. Sure we hoped for more, like a new real codex would be, but it isn't bad by any means.

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Re: Faith too random?

Post by Kris Knives » Tue Dec 20, 2011 1:11 pm

azzerath wrote:She does like the new ones, especially now that all the rules are 5th edition. For example Seraphim used to have their own hit and run rules and the like, so it was a bit more complicated. They had a few quirks that were annoying to keep track of.

We think they kept the core ideals of the army intact, and made faith simpler, and brought the point levels to the 5th edition levels. Sure we hoped for more, like a new real codex would be, but it isn't bad by any means.
Well that is good news to hear. Hopefully 2012 will be a good year for the Adepta Sororitas and we'll see some additional content released for them.

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Re: Faith too random?

Post by Corpsey » Tue Dec 20, 2011 4:05 pm

Their faith doesn't scale as well anymore either. You used to get points for every type of unit/model you brought in your army, meaning the bigger your army the more points you had. Now your points are generated at random and have a hard cap, meaning no matter how many units you'll still have the same amount of points. I don't think the faith system was changed for the better, on the whole.
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Kris Knives
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Re: Faith too random?

Post by Kris Knives » Tue Dec 20, 2011 4:11 pm

Corpsey wrote:Their faith doesn't scale as well anymore either. You used to get points for every type of unit/model you brought in your army, meaning the bigger your army the more points you had. Now your points are generated at random and have a hard cap, meaning no matter how many units you'll still have the same amount of points. I don't think the faith system was changed for the better, on the whole.
Yea that did come up when discussing it. I kind of thought he was jokeing. Seems like Sisters would become progressively worse the more points involved in the game. :(

Maybe when the full codex comes out they'll add some new units who an do fun things with faith to help even out the new system. We can only hope I guess. :|

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Re: Faith too random?

Post by ClockworkZion » Mon Dec 26, 2011 9:44 am

In regards to Faith not scaling well:

I usually play my Sisters at the 2K level and usually don't need all of my Faith points because most of them are so situation specific the only one that gets used every turn is the Battle Sister's ability to reroll 1's.

That said, if you're playing at 2.5K or more over that I'd look at taking a second army through an extra force since you start running out of room in a list at that point anyways.
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Re: Faith too random?

Post by Kris Knives » Tue Dec 27, 2011 9:21 am

ClockworkZion wrote:In regards to Faith not scaling well:

I usually play my Sisters at the 2K level and usually don't need all of my Faith points because most of them are so situation specific the only one that gets used every turn is the Battle Sister's ability to reroll 1's.

That said, if you're playing at 2.5K or more over that I'd look at taking a second army through an extra force since you start running out of room in a list at that point anyways.
Thanks for the suggestion. List aside it is hard just getting that many sister's models so extra force definitely sounds like a good option to explore.

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Re: Faith too random?

Post by Virideon » Thu Jan 26, 2012 6:00 am

Corpsey wrote:Their faith doesn't scale as well anymore either. You used to get points for every type of unit/model you brought in your army, meaning the bigger your army the more points you had. Now your points are generated at random and have a hard cap, meaning no matter how many units you'll still have the same amount of points. I don't think the faith system was changed for the better, on the whole.
I think it would have been better to streamline the old system a little (don't have some powers that require a unit to roll above its squad size, and others that require it to roll below), rather than making an entirely new faith system.

It just seems like Cruddace started with the intent of simplifying the power, but went several miles too far.

I dislike the new faith system for the same reason I despise the 4th edition D&D spell system - virtually all the strategy has been taken out. You no longer have a faith pool for the entire game, so there's neither a penalty for squandering all your faith points early, nor a reward for saving them. In addition, there's no longer a choice of faith powers - each unit has 1 very situational power, so there's no longer any strategy involved in selecting the right power at the right time.

Furthermore, most of the faith powers just aren't very good. There are a couple of decent ones (like twin-linking weapons and rerolling failed to-wound rolls), but many of the others just feel like they're needed to actually make the unit worthwhile, as oppose to making it above average for a key turn.

Finally, I was very disappointed that the Martyrdom rule is now gone. I thought the act of a SoB sacrificing herself to help win the battle was very flavourful of the army, and something that should have been expanded on - not dropped alltogether..

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Re: Faith too random?

Post by Kris Knives » Thu Jan 26, 2012 10:47 am

Virideon wrote:I think it would have been better to streamline the old system a little (don't have some powers that require a unit to roll above its squad size, and others that require it to roll below), rather than making an entirely new faith system.
Now that I've read the old rule book, I have to agree. Personally I though I'd have like to have seen a hybrid approach. Give some powers which apply to the whole army and some which are individual to units.
Virideon wrote:It just seems like Cruddace started with the intent of simplifying the power, but went several miles too far.

I dislike the new faith system for the same reason I despise the 4th edition D&D spell system - virtually all the strategy has been taken out. You no longer have a faith pool for the entire game, so there's neither a penalty for squandering all your faith points early, nor a reward for saving them. In addition, there's no longer a choice of faith powers - each unit has 1 very situational power, so there's no longer any strategy involved in selecting the right power at the right time.
Yea I didn't you make a really good point here.
Virideon wrote:Furthermore, most of the faith powers just aren't very good. There are a couple of decent ones (like twin-linking weapons and rerolling failed to-wound rolls), but many of the others just feel like they're needed to actually make the unit worthwhile, as oppose to making it above average for a key turn.
Well I think the Sisters as a whole have some issues with being competitive right now, not just the faith powers.
Virideon wrote:Finally, I was very disappointed that the Martyrdom rule is now gone. I thought the act of a SoB sacrificing herself to help win the battle was very flavourful of the army, and something that should have been expanded on - not dropped alltogether..
I agree again. I personally would like to see a set up with very limited faith points but more options to generate faith points and improve both faith rolls and the Shield of Faith ability strategically. I guess we can only hope that the we'll get an expanded and improved SoB codex at some point in the future.

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Re: Faith too random?

Post by PhenomeNorn » Thu Jan 26, 2012 11:47 am

hopefully they will re-release the Sisters. I used to play regularly against a Sisters player (I play nids) and it was always a challenge what with the rerolling 1s and stuff. It doesn't make sense for them not to update the Sisters of Battle because i feel they were actually a pretty popular army for some collectors. But, I can see where working with so much metal could be a problem. Hey if you want something go for it, nothing wrong with starting to collect a second army
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Re: Faith too random?

Post by Kris Knives » Thu Jan 26, 2012 11:59 am

PhenomeNorn wrote:hopefully they will re-release the Sisters. I used to play regularly against a Sisters player (I play nids) and it was always a challenge what with the rerolling 1s and stuff. It doesn't make sense for them not to update the Sisters of Battle because i feel they were actually a pretty popular army for some collectors. But, I can see where working with so much metal could be a problem. Hey if you want something go for it, nothing wrong with starting to collect a second army
Well rumor has it they are making SoB plastic prototypes now and the new sisters will be an early 2013 release including a few new additions to the SoB roster to expand on the army. However so far there is nothing to confirm that rumor,.

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Re: Faith too random?

Post by Virideon » Fri Jan 27, 2012 10:25 am

Kris Knives wrote: I agree again. I personally would like to see a set up with very limited faith points but more options to generate faith points and improve both faith rolls and the Shield of Faith ability strategically. I guess we can only hope that the we'll get an expanded and improved SoB codex at some point in the future.
I agree. I think SoB should start with a number of faith points proportional to the army size (e.g. 1 faith point per unit in the army, 1 extra for certain units like the canoness). And be able to generate more when specific models/units die.

I'd also like to see some 'universal' faith powers, which can be used by any units, as well as the unit-specific ones.
Kris Knives wrote: Well I think the Sisters as a whole have some issues with being competitive right now, not just the faith powers.
That's certainly true. SoB have 1 ridiculously-undercosted/overpowered HQ (Saint Celestine), but the rest of their army is badly undercosted or underpowered.

Also, a lot of things just don't synergise well. Take the Canoness. In the old codex, she was one of the best HQ choices (perhaps the best) - now there's no reason whatsoever to take her. Her act of faith gives her and her squad preferred enemy and +1 initiative. In theory, this should allow her to strike at the same time as enemy commanders, and her squad to strike at the same time as MEQ squads. However, with the pointless removal of blessed weapons, the best weapon the canoness and her squad can have is essentially a powerfist - making the initiative bonus all but pointless, because your best weapons will be striking last anyway.

Also, I think the removal of plasmaguns from troops really hurt SoB. Meltas are useful, but 2 shots per plasmagun in rapid-fire range makes them far better for killing terminators, MCs and many other elite units.

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Re: Faith too random?

Post by Kris Knives » Fri Jan 27, 2012 11:05 am

Well on top of that I think the Sisters need more Elite and Troop options. Right now at least Sisters have 1 excellent HQ, one very solid Heavy Support and some playable fast attack options, however their elites seem very weak and one troop choice is very restrictive.

Celestian Squads are way over priced as they are only a tiny upgrade on standard Sisters and the Repentia Squad just doesn't bring enough to the table (particularly their weak faith power) and carry some serious drawbacks. Even the 5 slot free Priests need some updating IMO.

I agree removing the plasma gun option hasn't helped the Sisters any.

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