"Dread Hound" - Elite walker Home brew rules

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"Dread Hound" - Elite walker Home brew rules

Post by kaeota » Mon May 03, 2010 6:53 am

First off, hi folks! Been stalking around for a while (actually, think I have one post!), and thought maybe you guys could offer me some advice on a unit I'm thinking of. Also, apologies if this post is considered 'overly' long; I'll mark where the profile starts clearly so if anyone wants they can skip strait to that.

BASIC IDEA: Every race that I can think of bar Tyranids (not 100% on Eldar / DE) have some kind of 'heavy' walker; eg, a walker with two heavy weapons. The sentinel is a good vehicle, lovely fluff, but in my opinion, it's missing the biggest factor that walkers have in their favour - moving while laying down the fire power of an entire unit. My idea with the Dread Hound (DH) is to try and cover this gap, without disrupting balance.

A bit more in depth, the DH wasn't something I was trying to design. Honestly I've been thinking of designing a Knight Titan; or maybe even building a Warhound itself if I felt confident (READ: stupid; my scratch skills are NOT at that level >.> ); reading through some conversions (over here if anyone's interested), I just happened to notice that, if it was turned on it's back and enlarged just a slight bit, the sentinel cockpit could easily look like a Warhound head miniaturised. Thus, after a couple of loose sketches, I had a model based on the sentinel that had a 'hound feel to it and began to get this ridiculous notion of making rules for it to actually be played! It's worth noting that I don't play that many games; I'm more of a modeller (couldn't even tell you if there's a club near me) so my 'rules' are heavily referenced from the IG and SM 'dexs, as well as reference taken from the Apoc' 'hound itself! Yes, I know this is generally frowned upon, and I've tried to take the fact that the 'dexs are NOT the same into account (and truly, the only stat I even referred to the 'hound was the number of attacks); but I really don't have much more to go on; hence, HERE! One last thing I tried to do was fill the (in my opinion) appalling lack of a decent all round elites choice. Once again, I can only judge by stat lines, but honestly? I don't think I've read anything that disagree's with me; Elites choices for IG are rare, and usually limited in scope to boot.

Any way, Stat profile starts now!
"Dread Hound"
Points: 95
Elite

......................[ Armour ]
WS....BS....S....F....S....R....I....A
.2.......2....6...12...11..10...3....1

Composition:
Vehicle 'pack' (squadron) of 1 - 3 Dread Hounds

Unit Type:
Walker (Vehicle)

Wargear:
2 * Multilaser

Special Rules:
Move Through Coverᶦ
Veteran Pilotᶦᶦ
Agileᶦᶦᶦ

Options:
● Any Dread Hound may replace either/both of it's multi-lasers with any combination of the following:
- Dreadnought close combat weapon ......... +5pts per wpn
- Autocannon or Heavy flamer ................... +5pts per wpn
- Missile launcher ..................................... +10pts per wpn
- Lascannon ........................................... +15pts per wpn
- Plasma cannon ...................................... +20pts per wpn

● Any model may take any of the following:
- Searchlight ........................................... +1pt per model
- Hunter-killer missile ................................ +5pts per model

●The entire pack may take Smoke launchers at +5pts per model.

ᶦ Originally designed for operation on the forest world Seirtha, the Dread Hound is designed to handle most difficult terrain with ease.
ᶦᶦ Dread Hounds are immensely valuable, both in materials and strategically. Because of this, only the most hardened veterans are ever even considered to pilot one. As such, when each Dread Hound comes onto the board, declare it as either a close combat, or a ranged specialist. That model will, for the rest of the game, have a +2 modifier to either it's WS or BS (for combat and ranged specialists respectively).
ᶦᶦᶦ Dread Hounds are often on the move, as such were designed to be surprisingly agile. Any Dread Hound may assault regardless of whether they chose to run in the shooting phase (as per the Fleet special rule).


More mindless (okay, not so much, but that's all the profile) chatter here.

My biggest concerns are points cost and my veteran pilot SR. I deliberately tried to keep it under 100 points, the main focus for this walker being cheaper than the dread (only thing even close for me to compare to; would LOVE killer kan stats to compare to!) was the stats; I could simply have gone with 3 3, but I feel that's a bit of a cop-out for guard to be quite honest. Look up the guard list, 3 3 for Sgts, infantry, penal legionaries, special weapon teams, heavy weapon teams; and it's even the base for elites, just with a +1 mod on either ws or bs! I mean, I get it, guard are about as good at shooting as your average person; but the special weapons? The heavy weapons? Would you give such 'specialised' weapons to just anyone? Even the veterans, season soldiers, only get +1 to bs; nice, but just a little bit of a let down. I wanted a unit that couldn't compete with a Marine dread all round, but could be specialised; and more than that, I wanted something that made people go 'wow! That's piloted by someone who knows his way around a battlefield!' I honestly want to make it better; I mean, on one hand, these are RARE vehicles, no rookie is gunna get his hands on it. On the other hand, Marines are 'unbeatable'; they're friggin' super soldiers! I honestly wish there was more leeway, more individuality in 40k; alas, we are confined by both dice and by by GW, but I do think that my rule allows a little bit 'extra', while still reminding people that even if they can match them in some regards; guardsmen are not Marines (okay, one of my regiment is, and there's a close link between my regiment and the Space Wolves; but that's all just fluff).

If it's good enough to get play tested (and I think I would about collapse under my ego if it was >.> ) I would love to hear the results. Any of you maths lovers opinions would be greatly appreciated as well (being too lazy to draw up 'stat' maths, and knowing that it has little impact without game knowledge I didn't bother to do it myself). There's a fair chance that I've missed something important, or overpowered / underpowered it in many ways; but that's why we're here, right? End goal is (hopefully) to have a cool looking unit, that can add a bit specific support (or even versatility; dual multi-las shooting walker holding a narrow pass behind the firing line comes to mind; but I'm a fluff lover ^.^) to any Guard army or game! I know Apoc lets you design your own rules, but I'm trying to design something that if I walked into my FLGS (not that I know where that would be <.< ) they would be happy to play against it in a 1000ish point army.

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Re: "Dread Hound" - Elite walker Home brew rules

Post by Solid_Smurf » Mon May 03, 2010 12:13 pm

Points are a bit cheap IMO.
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Re: "Dread Hound" - Elite walker Home brew rules

Post by kaeota » Mon May 03, 2010 5:18 pm

See, that's what I was worried about; it would basically be the only unit that you could assault a group of marines with and hope to win by means other than sheer numbers, combined with the fact that it could move 18" if it gets lucky, a dual DCCW variant would be a real threat. That being said, I've been talking to someone over on dakka who suggested dropping 20pts off the base and adding 10 per DCCW, as it's heavy weapon options seemed underpowered, so now I'm confused :?

Thanks for the input though!

EDIT:]After a bit of feedback elsewhere (mainly dakka) this is the new profile (keeping the original up top for reference)

Any way, Stat profile starts now!
"Dread Hound"
Points: 75
Elite

.....................[ Armour ]
WS....BS....S....F....S....R....I....A
.2.......2....6...12...11..10...3....1

Composition:
Vehicle 'pack' (squadron) of 1 - 3 Dread Hounds

Unit Type:
Walker (Vehicle)

Wargear:
2 * Multilaser

Special Rules:
Move Through Coverᶦ
Veteran Pilotᶦᶦ
Agileᶦᶦᶦ

Options:
● Any Dread Hound may replace either/both of it's multi-lasers with any combination of the following:
- Autocannon or Heavy flamer ................... +5pts per wpn
- Missile launcher ..................................... +10pts per wpn
- Dreadnought close combat weapon ......... +15pts per wpn
- Lascannon ........................................... +15pts per wpn
- Plasma cannon ...................................... +20pts per wpn

● Any model may take any of the following:
- Searchlight ........................................... +1pt per model
- Hunter-killer missile ................................ +10pts per model

●The entire pack may take any of the following:
- Smoke launchers ................................. +5pts per model
- Camo-netting ...................................... +20pts per model

ᶦ Originally designed for operation on the forest world Seirtha, the Dread Hound is designed to handle most difficult terrain with ease.
ᶦᶦ Dread Hounds are immensely valuable, both in materials and strategically. Because of this, only the most hardened veterans are ever even considered to pilot one. As such, when each Dread Hound comes onto the board, declare it as either a close combat, or a ranged specialist. That model will, for the rest of the game, have a +2 modifier to either it's WS or BS (for combat and ranged specialists respectively).
ᶦᶦᶦ Dread Hounds are often on the move, as such were designed to be surprisingly agile. Any Dread Hound may assault regardless of whether they chose to run in the shooting phase (as per the Fleet special rule).

Changes:
Points -20
DCCW +10pts per
added camo-netting.

Still worried about the points; but as I said, I don't actually know that much about ingame tactics, and compared to other options in the guard codex, I don't think it's too OP (hopefully?). Any and all input welcomed!
Last edited by kaeota on Tue May 04, 2010 6:54 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: "Dread Hound" - Elite walker Home brew rules

Post by Frozt » Mon May 03, 2010 9:45 pm

Your going to get mixed results as some people will say the idea is either too overpowered, or underpowered, etc. You could tweak it, build a model (or a dozen) and use it Apocalypse games with a datasheet with friends or your local gaming area.
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Re: "Dread Hound" - Elite walker Home brew rules

Post by Zeruel13 » Mon May 03, 2010 9:48 pm

Tyranids, Tau, Necrons, Daemons, Dark Eldar and Witch Hunters. All armies without any such dual heavy weapon walker. Also arguably Orks as they technically have no heavy weapons mounted on any of their walkers, though some can take two guns.

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Re: "Dread Hound" - Elite walker Home brew rules

Post by jackmrnorris94 » Mon May 03, 2010 9:53 pm

I would like to see a picture, because if I did, I may save up money to make this "Walker" for fun of course. Can you give me a description on what it looks like?

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Re: "Dread Hound" - Elite walker Home brew rules

Post by kaeota » Tue May 04, 2010 2:20 am

Thanks for all the replies!

Honestly, I'd love to use it, but 1) I don't have a full army and 2) have no idea if there's even a group in my area even if I did. Trying to build up to at least a minimum army so I can do some gaming if I find anyone though!

Zeruel, don't the Tau broadsides have dual heavy weapons? I only have access to the IG dex and the SM one (even that only through a friend where I used to live who plays); and I always assumed DE had everything the Eldar had. The Tyranids get some darned powerful bugs, so I'd be interested in seeing if any of them are 'effectively' walkers. Once again, no idea on Daemons (I actually thought they were just another part of the Chaos codex? Or are they more like chapters?) Witch hunters and Necrons again, unfortunately, I have no idea about (completely forgot Necrons existed, actually >.>); though I've read about ork deff dreads; are they not similar things?

Jack, I have a couple of /very/ lose sketches, if you like I could upload them (I'm not a real good drawer, but I'm not very good at descriptions either >.>). My original idea was based off the picture down the bottom of this post (full credit to Nonebutone, he's an AWESOME scratch builder); and is essentially a 'scaled down' warhound, to the point where the legs are ~= to a sentinels. You can then turn the head on its back, with the (previously) top facing forwards as the head; though it would need to be enlarged to fit a pilot. From there I was thinking a 'back and shoulders' armour plating addition behind the head, and mounting the weapons as arms. Beef the legs up with a bit of armour plating et viola! That being said, I'm a rather mediocre designer, I'm sure many people could design better.

Image

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Re: "Dread Hound" - Elite walker Home brew rules

Post by Zeruel13 » Tue May 04, 2010 7:37 am

Broadsides for starters are not Walkers at all, just multi-wound models that only have the same toughness and armour save as a Space Marine and cannot move and shoot either. Dark Eldar are really nothing like Eldar and have nothing in common with them unit wise. Daemons are most certainly their own army and are very, very different from Chaos Marines. And Deff Dreads are certainly walkers but they don't actually have heavy weapons and 99% of the time they'll only have close combat weapons or flamer type weapons and hardly ever any long range support fire as the best they can take is two big shootas or rokkit launchas which neither is a heavy weapon and the dread has terrible BS so no one really uses those.

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Re: "Dread Hound" - Elite walker Home brew rules

Post by patrickmccarty » Tue May 04, 2010 11:06 am

If anything I would have to compare this to the sentinal and maybe the space marine dred. So yes It does need to be more points than an armored sentinal since it is mounting two weapons besides one and has better armor. Maybe cost it about the same as the valkyrie.

I like the idea of making it a ranged or close combat specialist.

Also, hunter killer missiles are normally 10 points. Not unless you want it to be special in that regard. Camo netting is normally 10 for a walker size but I guess this thing is the size of a Lemon Russ so I guess 20 is appropiate.

Anyways, the only real way to get it balanced is to playtest it. Proxy a model or models and see how it does against something.
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Re: "Dread Hound" - Elite walker Home brew rules

Post by kaeota » Tue May 04, 2010 7:00 pm

Zeruel; ya live ya learn, hey? I'll review it with that in mind tonight, thanks :)

Patrick; thanks =) Points seem to be a bit of a hit and miss thing, though I do firmly believe the valk is a more useful unit, there are definitely advantages to either. hurm... I'll need to compare it to the rest of the codex (will do later today when I have time :) ). I really wanted to make it unique somehow, and really reinforce that it not only isn't as good as a space marine, but while it can do both well (CC and ranged) it should really focus on one or the other. And thanks for pointing out the HKs, I miss read that 0.o

Thanks for the info and opinions guys, keep them coming :)

EDIT: Okay, after some thinking I've come up with a bit of an idea on the points front. Add 10 points to the base cost (taking it up to a base of 85 pts) but frop 5 pts off the missile launcher, DCCW, Las and plasma cannons. Looking at the weapons costs, I think it looks a lot cheaper than it is, especially with the heavier weapons.

While this change wont affect the best weapons any (due to the -5 on each weapon), it should stop these things from being fielded 9 at a time or something. Also thinking of setting a limit on how many packs could be taken, it adds to the whole 'rarity' piece of fluff, and in game (should) force the IG player to pick either CC or ranged for the hounds. The points increase for base walkers should also help negate the fact that dual H.Weap walkers are apparently a lot rare than I thought

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Re: "Dread Hound" - Elite walker Home brew rules

Post by Ashran » Wed May 05, 2010 6:39 pm

Aw, i'm hurt! Nonebutone never shared those two beautiful conversions on MWG! :cry:

Anyhow, I can't really think of anything useful save that it's an interesting concept :wink:

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Re: "Dread Hound" - Elite walker Home brew rules

Post by jackmrnorris94 » Wed May 05, 2010 7:47 pm

Mastra wrote:Aw, i'm hurt! Nonebutone never shared those two beautiful conversions on MWG! :cry:
Oh yes he did!

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Re: "Dread Hound" - Elite walker Home brew rules

Post by MrMcOwnage » Thu May 06, 2010 12:26 am

I think you might take that bit about hardened veterans being the only ones to drive them out, since they have the same BS as a conscript.

I love the idea, but I am a Guard player, so I will always like to get better weapons.
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Re: "Dread Hound" - Elite walker Home brew rules

Post by kaeota » Thu May 06, 2010 7:36 pm

Mastra wrote:Aw, i'm hurt! Nonebutone never shared those two beautiful conversions on MWG! :cry:

Anyhow, I can't really think of anything useful save that it's an interesting concept :wink:

edit: if i'm Kratos, you must be Ares...You know what that means right?*draws out chained swords*
Check the link in my first post ;) None is the newest Ork god. Thanks! At one point in time or another it will be built; buuut that may be a while yet :( Regrettably, however, I have very little knowledge of Greek mythology =\
MrMcOwnage wrote:I think you might take that bit about hardened veterans being the only ones to drive them out, since they have the same BS as a conscript.

I love the idea, but I am a Guard player, so I will always like to get better weapons.
My thinking in that was that they're not used to the vehicles weapons naturally; from children guardsmen are picked and trained to fight with lasguns and chainswords - a lifetimes training can be hard to over-ride. However, they would naturally specialise in one field or another, as by the time you're a veteran your tactics will (likely) favour one or the other; thus when given access to the Imperial Guards heaviest walker (that I know of, as the titans are owned and controlled by the Adeptus Mechanicus) they'll likely keep the tactics they trust in, and learn the skills needed to perform that to a greater extent that other skills.

Thanks! Though I /am/ trying to make it so they're not 'better' per say; just another option :)

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Re: "Dread Hound" - Elite walker Home brew rules

Post by DigitalPhantom » Thu May 06, 2010 8:13 pm

The only problems are the ws and bs (I read your post) and the squadron idea needs to either (a) limit how much you can take or (b) raise the plasma cannon points cost cause then they can be able to drop more plasma cannon barrages than a leman russ with the sponsons at a cheaper cost, but the idea is good overall.

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