What to do with superheavy units in Warhammer 8th edition

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What to do with superheavy units in Warhammer 8th edition

Post by Warzone40k » Thu Mar 29, 2018 11:06 pm

Actually, this week we wanted to talk about something else, but the complete profile of the new little knight - Armiger Warglaive has leaked into the web. So, let's talk about the balance of super-heavy elite units in Warhammer 40 000 in the 8th edition.

Actually, you can see the profile of the new Knight below. It might seem that everything is fine. Quite a powerful weapon on a very solid platform for a good price. But, you know what is embarrassing? Here is this block at the top - the table of degradation. Our new friend is degrading in the most important parameters for such machine - BS and WS. And it happens as soon as he loses half (6) of his wound. And it's ... catastrophic.

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It would seem - just 4+ for a successful hit roll. However, in these conditions, especially with modest 4 attacks in close combat and random D3 shots, it turns into a laughingstock rather than a full-fledged combat vehicle. And what weapon can remove 6 wounds in T7 and 5 ++ in this edition? Yes, any lascannon, or rocket. Two - to be guaranteed. It turns out, an impressive fighting machine for 200 points turns into useless junk after one volley over it. It’s even unnece
ssary to finish it. And the enemy naturally wants to make this volley, seeing such an undoubtedly dangerous goal. Isn’t it more reasonable, to take a dreadnaught?

Why are we talking about the unready unit with such confidence? Because absolutely the same thing happens with a big Imperial Knight. Twice as many wounds, of course, but also, as practice shows, it's not a problem at all. 5 ++ is not enough to provide at least some kind of stability. Do not forget that the enemy always aims at such target in the first place. This also applies to many other equally powerful and expensive units. The table of "degradation" in essence, reduces their effectiveness twice. And if, for example, the primarchs can protect themselves with magic, then the Knights are completely defenseless against enemy fire. In the seventh edition, for example, they did not receive any fines for damage at all.

The conclusion seems to be logical - to change the table to lower other stats, for example, the number of attacks - so we leave the Knight a chance to prove himself useful at least in shooting, and remain useful until the end. However, judging by his younger partner, in the upcoming codex this just will not happen. What then? Obviously, we are waiting for strategems to use the maximum profile, or simply to restore health - this has already been in other codices. However, this is not enough - everyone knows how quickly command points end up. Therefore, we have to desire only an increase in survivability - the possibility of invuln increasing, or some kind of FNP. Or, better, both.

And how do you see this problem? Do you enjoy the game for superheavy units in the new edition? Offer your ideas! The main goal of this blog is to raise this issue in the wargame community because logical and obvious solutions are still bypassing us.

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Re: What to do with superheavy units in Warhammer 8th edition

Post by TobyGaunt89 » Fri Mar 30, 2018 4:39 am

Well, although the Armiger is a way too new model in the game for me to give a verdict on, I'd point out the following:

1) The Armiger clocks in at a rather low cost for a LoW model. It is fair to say that two Armigers can make up (or cost less) then say a Knight Paladin.
At that point you just have to ask, "Do I split 24 Wounds across two models or stick all of them into one model?". If you could achieve an end goal in spliting the wounds towards two models instead of one then there is something to be had here.

2) One Thermal Cannon or two Thermal Spears? Again we return to a similar point as seen above. If both fire into the same unit of 5 or more models, we compare 2D3 vs 1D6. Against Vehicles, the Knight goes all in into one Vehicle while the two Armigers can choose to either do the same or spread the shots between two Vehicles.

3) Although the Damage Table is a big setback for the model, I'd say it's on par with other Heavy options in the game. To this end, if you take as an example two Armigers, one Land Raider and up to 1-3 Predators in your list; you are forcing your foe to spread his/her Lascannon/Melta shots thinnly across your army. Sure, you may take damage on all of them, but with Support from other models (like Techmarines, Ad Mech and/or Stratagems that affect Vehicles) you can go a long way with them. As a Tyranid player myself, I know full well that targeting "the right" vehicles at the start of the game can determin the outcome big time in the late game. If you bring a combo of three valid units, you make my decision real hard to make.

Overall, I think the Armiger is good. It adds something to the game (hopefully something meaningful for Ad Mech more so then the Astartes) and is also not an OP element that will make such armies go 10 for 10 in a matchup. But that's just my view.

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Re: What to do with superheavy units in Warhammer 8th edition

Post by mrazek22 » Fri Mar 30, 2018 11:03 am

I seriously wonder as to the purpose of this vehicle? It's a LoW? IN WHAT UNIVERSE? I'd rather take a Baneblade, for 2x the cost, but 10x the ability. This is somewhat of proof that GW modelers don't talk to GW Stat teams.

That being said, it's a low cost model with potential when in 6 months they create new "variants" and FW makes a actually effective.

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Re: What to do with superheavy units in Warhammer 8th edition

Post by Signet-Powers » Fri Mar 30, 2018 11:35 am

This is some ludicrous hyperbole.

With its loadout it can kill a tank a turn. Hell it has better accuracy and stats than some tanks. And every vehicle suffers from degredation, I don't see why this should be any different.

Quite frankly, the less super-unkillable Lord of Wars, the better.

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Re: What to do with superheavy units in Warhammer 8th edition

Post by mrazek22 » Fri Mar 30, 2018 2:41 pm

And a Melta CAN kill a Tank in 2 shots. Doesn't mean it's likely, or even bankable. This thing has one thing going for it, and that's it's Thermal Lance. It CAN do 18 damage per round to a single target, which is enough to kill a Russ, sure. But more often than not, it will do 7-9 damage. Which isn't enough to kill. And now you're in range of everything that wants to kill it and has 48" range.

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Re: What to do with superheavy units in Warhammer 8th edition

Post by Signet-Powers » Fri Mar 30, 2018 4:11 pm

My post was directed towards the OP, not you Mrazek22, but going with what you said how many units in the game can reliably bring a Leman Russ from 12 to 0 wounds on their own in a single turn? Not many.

Now the Armiger can push up quickly, advance, shoot and lock the enemies tanks into melee. All the while Chimeras, Hellhounds and Stormtroopers are pushing up alongside it. It's not meant for wading through the open and leading the charge, it's meant for flanking or to support Fast Attack units.

Is it overcosted? Perhaps, but it only needs to kil a tank and a half to make its point back, or Tie up a powerful units so that others can push up unimpeded to be worthwhile.

Not saying its perfect but to say its "Catastrophic" as the original poster put it is ludicrous.

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Re: What to do with superheavy units in Warhammer 8th edition

Post by mrazek22 » Fri Mar 30, 2018 4:35 pm

I am terribly sorry for the missed point. Entirely my fault!

That being said, is there a limit on LoWs? for instance, if you go Brigade, this will eat up a valuable slot, and you can only take 1. If on the other hand, you take a Superheavy Det, you need to take at a minimum 3, which is about 700 points. That's really limiting.

So my question I guess is, do you take a supreme heavy det, and base the rest of your army off supporting these three guys? I have not seen any Vehicle based armies have any major success in tournaments, but this might work if you go all robots, and these guys act as in your face line breakers? I can see these guys really upsetting certain armies.

I don't know, I'm 50-50 on them. Love the model, confused as to how to include them.

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Re: What to do with superheavy units in Warhammer 8th edition

Post by Raschier » Fri Mar 30, 2018 5:40 pm

Up to 3 armigers fit in one super heavy slot, or so they say on the warhammer community post that described said Armiger. So you could take 2-3 with a super heavy auxillary detachment, or in the brigade detachment. That might make them more accessible to get more in an army.

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Re: What to do with superheavy units in Warhammer 8th edition

Post by Lord-Terrycus » Fri Mar 30, 2018 5:47 pm

My personal opinion is specifically 6 Armiger Warglaives and a Crusader-1997 points on total. Let’s be honest, a Crusader will deal with most armies fairly well, and is a better answer against horde units. The Armigers seem to do pretty well against high wounds, and a pair of them can do a lot of damage against a unit of Space Marines or so, so why not? They won’t be the best against hordes, but hordes won’t Always be effective against them either.
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Re: What to do with superheavy units in Warhammer 8th edition

Post by scumbagprince » Fri Mar 30, 2018 6:12 pm

To me this looks like a unit explicitly made to kill enemy Artillery vehicles/monsters.

14" movement.

S12 melee, 2+ vs T6 which most artillery pieces are.

assault meltas.

to me this looks like a unit that is built to flank and one shot artillery pieces. Though it looks like too large of a point sink to be effective for that role.

[EDIT] Its basically a devil dog with a 5++ save and 2" extra movement and an effective CC attack. Seems odd it is classified a a LoW, I would classify this as a fast attack personally.

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Re: What to do with superheavy units in Warhammer 8th edition

Post by Koonitz » Sat Mar 31, 2018 2:40 am

For those who might be asking "Why or how is this a Lord of War?" The answer is pretty simple.

This model is NOT meant to be only a support unit for an AdMech army (I do not believe it was even meant to be that in the first place, let alone only). It is primarily meant to be a support unit for a KNIGHT army. Ask yourself, if you want to take an army of only Knights, how are you going to field these in your all-Knight list if they are Heavy Support or Fast Attack (the two most likely alternative slots)?

The answer is "You can't". Knights do not have an HQ choice, therefore they cannot take any detachment that includes a HS/FA slot, without taking an HQ from another army, thus losing any army benefits they (are assumed to) get from their codex. Nor do they have enough alternative force org slot choices to start making some of their Knights alternative choices (ie: Make their "warlord" Knight an HQ). It would simply feel out-of-place.

The simplest and most reasonable method is to make the Armiger class Knight a Lord of War. It fits nicely into the mechanics of how a Knight army is meant to be built (ie: Super-heavy Detachment). That is why the Armiger was made a Lord of War.

If you want to know whether you can take more than one per Lord of War slot, the answer is in the picture already posted. The Armiger Warglaive unit consists of 1 Armiger. It may include up to 2 more. They use the "Vehicle Squadron" special rule for deployment and functionality, which is that they must deploy together, but then act independently once the game begins. As such, a single Lord of War slot is, indeed 1-3 Armiger Warglaives.
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Re: What to do with superheavy units in Warhammer 8th edition

Post by Marit Lage » Sat Mar 31, 2018 8:47 am

It's probably to keep in line with the force chart that Knights use. If it was made fast attack, Knight armies couldn't use it without an outside HQ or open play.
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Re: What to do with superheavy units in Warhammer 8th edition

Post by mrazek22 » Mon Apr 02, 2018 8:07 am

Ok, so my only point is that you can invest 700 or so points MUCH more effectively than taking 3 of these.

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Re: What to do with superheavy units in Warhammer 8th edition

Post by Lord-Terrycus » Mon Apr 02, 2018 8:36 am

mrazek22 wrote:
Mon Apr 02, 2018 8:07 am
Ok, so my only point is that you can invest 700 or so points MUCH more effectively than taking 3 of these.
I would still say maybe, not definitely. I mean; for what they do? They’re pretty good, on top of being capable of giving you three command points. I mean, you could maybe get a brigade or battalion if you played guard, but with knights? No.

Plus with their own special stratagems they can be worth it.
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Re: What to do with superheavy units in Warhammer 8th edition

Post by mrazek22 » Mon Apr 02, 2018 11:00 am

So, I just read an interesting article, stating that these are not attackers, but one person uses them as ranged blockers/defensive shields for actual knights. So they set up a knight that is attacking, and these act as a delta pattern force keeping out chargers, or lesser swarm units. I guess I can see that working, but then that's again, almost 1000-1500 points tied up in 4-6 units, depending on the type of Knight (I used a Paladin for the Math Crafting). It's just under 2k if you add a second trio of Amigers. All to guard a Knight. Which, as far as a 2k army goes, would be pretty awesome, but extremely weak against hordes.

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