Catachan [2000] points

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scumbagprince
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Catachan [2000] points

Post by scumbagprince » Mon Mar 19, 2018 6:17 pm

I haven't played since 5th edition and I'm looking to get back into 40k. I want to create a list the same or similar to this list, and would like to know if this list can be created to be competitive and if so, how competitive can a list like this be against a player of equal skill or less playing an optimal competitive list against me?

I do not want to buy an army that canno't be played at least averagely, by a competent player, in a competitive setting. I love to compete and it would suck if I had a list that lost a majority of games regardless of how I played.

I have currently only bought the Catachan defense force, but would like to keep my final Catachan army similar to this model count because it makes me happy from a lore and collectors perspective.

I do think this list is currently fairly competitive, even if its not optimal, but I would love a more experienced player to take a look at it from a competitive standpoint before I start donating money to GW.

Any help or tips are MUCHLY appreciated! :)

1 Battalion
1 vanguard
7 CP

HQ:
1 colonel iron hand Straken: Warlord trait Lead from the front- 80
1 company commander with - 1 chainsword 1 bolter - 31
1 tank commander in a leman russ with 1 demolisher cannon,1 lascannon, 2 muti-melta, storm bolter, auger array - 279
Elites:
1x4 command squad with 4 plasma guns - 76
4x10 catachan devils - 3 grenade launchers, 6 lasguns, 1 boltgun, 1 vox caster - 324
1x10 catachan barkers- 3 flamers 6 shotguns 1 chainsword 1 boltgun - 82
2x1 ogryn bodygaurd with bullgryn maul, brute sield -124
Fast attack:
1 bane wolf with multi-melta, chem cannon - 108
1 hellhounds with inferno cannon, heavy flamer - 110
3 scout sentinals with heavy flamers - 156
Troop:
3x10 catachans jungle fighters:1 las pistol,1 chain sword, 1 missile launcher, 7 lasguns - 180
Heavy:
1 leman russ with 1 demolisher cannon, 1 lascannon, 2 multi-melta, auger array - 234
Transport:
2 chimera with 2 heavy flamers - 218

The idea of this list is to

have Straken with the command squad and 2 ogryns in the chimera designed to be a finishing blow to any enemy T6 unit preferably monsters, backed up by the bane wolf.

have the company commander with 10 Catachan barkers (veterans named after the barking toad of their home land due to the noise and destruction they cause upon disembarking from their chimera) in a chimera deal the finishing blow to enemy toughness 3 units, backed up by the hell-hound.

Have 40 Catachan devils form the vanguard of the army advancing through cover to take enemy board side objectives while laying down a respectable amount of fire versus enemy T3 infantry, or potentially T5 infantry.

Have the scout sentinels act as mobile support wherever enemy T4 infantry are holding an area, or to support the 30 jungle fighters in holding my side of the board.

Have the two leman-russ advance with the support of the Vanguard to gain an advantageous board position to unload on enemy T9,8,7 Heavy enemies from its low 24" range.

Have 30 Catachan jungle fighters hold my side of the board while laying supportive fire for either Straken or the company commander whichever needs it due to the missile launchers flexible stat line.

This is my rough game plan that will be modified to match my opponent, but hopefully it gives you some insight as to why I picked the units I did.

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Re: Catachan [2000] points

Post by Ronin » Mon Mar 19, 2018 10:47 pm

At a glance, I'd rate this a 3/5 on my difficulty scale. It's a balanced list suitable for playing the casual narrative crowd, but I think it'd have trouble against someone who's semi-competitive or brings a tournament list. There's a number of things that could be optimized better if you want to play more competitively. It's a lot of infantry, but it's a lot of close ranged infantry which means you could get outgunned before you get close enough in the wrong matchup.

Demolisher leman russ's are really situational because they have to get really really close to be effective. You can use this as a unit to psych your opponent out from coming to you, but using them aggressively as you push forward might not be a good idea because you either have to move up and lose the double tap. Executioners and standard battle tanks are actually more cost effective because they have both the damage output and the range plus they can hold your rear objectives while your army pushes up. I prefer the former especially if you run them as tank commanders and order themselves for reroll 1's. It's brutal...

Command squad with plasma is ok, but if I saw them within range I would pick them off first because it's so easy to chew those plasma guns away. I prefer to run the plasmas on the vet squads and give orders to them for rerolls. That way your opponent has to eat through all the bodies before they get to them. Not a huge fan of grenade launchers and flamers personally. Flamers this edition are really weak and they're only good for being defensive when your opponent is about to charge you. Most you'll ever get to fire them is once or twice the entire game.

Missile launchers I did the math on and they're really not that cost effective especially on BS4+ guard. Statswise it's probably the worst heavy weapon this edition because it's such an expensive generalist. Any of the other weapons I found would make a better choice. Mortars seem to be the most popular, but I like running either autocannons or heavy bolters because the guard have more shots to make up for the BS.

One suggestion is I'd make it so that you have enough orders for every other infantry unit on the table. That way it ensures you get some kind of reroll on every unit which the guard really need. I do like how you have a very solid midfield and rearguard. Getting into your opponent's deployment might be tough, though.

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Re: Catachan [2000] points

Post by mrazek22 » Tue Mar 20, 2018 9:58 am

Ditch the launchers, go for SW over HW. Those HW squads are going to really cramp your ability to move, and then later shoot. Go GLers or Meltas. Meltas will toast anything you hit with them, and you seem to want to get really up close and personal with your guys. Meltas cost less than launchers, and do both jobs way more effectively.

As for your heavier side of the house, correct me, but this seems like you built a purely anti-infantry list. Anything with W10 or higher is going to make your life very hard.

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Re: Catachan [2000] points

Post by Ronin » Tue Mar 20, 2018 1:45 pm

He did say the infantry squads are just to hold rear objectives so I don't imagine they'd be doing much moving. I actually prefer HW's in infantry squads because you can't focus fire down the heavy weapons. Melta on infantry squads are awful because they only have 1 shot at BS 4+. I'd rather take any other special weapon over the meltas for them since they typically belong on veteran squads.

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Re: Catachan [2000] points

Post by mrazek22 » Tue Mar 20, 2018 2:39 pm

If he's playing to stay back then you're right on the money, and just load up mortars and send the pain. But, if he's advancing and walking across the map, those are going to get munched when opponent flanks or drops reserves in the back field.

The other thing I just noticed, why Brute shields? Can Ogryns not use slab shields? And if not, why not just use Bullgryns? I tend to think if you need Ogryns, there is no reason NOT to use Bullgryns instead. I'll take a 2+ over a 4++.

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Re: Catachan [2000] points

Post by Signet-Powers » Tue Mar 20, 2018 3:07 pm

I take missile launchers (mainly because the bix only had 3 lascannons in it) they're OK. Not as good as Lascannons but very close and identical in damage. Plus it can be useful to have an anti-tank weapon become a direct fire mortar once the opponents tanks are dead. Lascannons become dead weight at that point.


Anyway I echo that the list is a little too short ranged. Close range it'll kill a lot tho.
Last edited by Signet-Powers on Tue Mar 20, 2018 3:26 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Catachan [2000] points

Post by coldsteel » Tue Mar 20, 2018 3:12 pm

I would add a Platoon leader to give orders to the 3 Infantry squads. Otherwise it's not too bad.
Crucifiers (SM codex) (11881/703 PL)
Orks (3745/255 PL)
Astra Militarum (####/378 PL)
Fallen Crucifiers (CSM codex) (####/351 PL)
Khornate Daemons (####/65 PL)
Death Guard (2387/128 PL)
Primaris Marines (1099/60 PL)

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Re: Catachan [2000] points

Post by Raschier » Tue Mar 20, 2018 5:09 pm

mrazek22 wrote:
Tue Mar 20, 2018 2:39 pm
The other thing I just noticed, why Brute shields? Can Ogryns not use slab shields? And if not, why not just use Bullgryns? I tend to think if you need Ogryns, there is no reason NOT to use Bullgryns instead. I'll take a 2+ over a 4++.
These are the bodyguard version, the ones that are a 'mini' version of Nork Dedogg. They can ofcourse be equiped with slabshields and carpace armor, but slabsshields give a 2+ to your armour save, ogryns only have a 5+, which would then be 3+. The 4++ from the brute shields can easily be upgraded to an 3++ with the "take cover" stratagem. You can give the bodyguard carapace armour ofcourse, but that costs points.

For the rest I agree with you, I would also take Bullgryns over Ogryns. Only if I have not enough points for Bullgryns I would go for Ogryns.

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Re: Catachan [2000] points

Post by Signet-Powers » Tue Mar 20, 2018 5:22 pm

An Ogryn bodyguard with Carapace is only worth 10 points less than 2 Bullygrin and has the same amount of wounds (though 2 less attacks). With Slabshield it has a 2+, and, with the free Deathmask gets a 2++ save as well.

On the other Bodyguard I'd probbaly take the Brute shield though, as an extra dice roll is always good.

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Re: Catachan [2000] points

Post by scumbagprince » Tue Mar 20, 2018 8:24 pm

This feedback is awesome and made me re look at some of my choices, but to give answer to a few of the questions/statements.

EDIT: I want to keep the list on the side of more infantry to keep true to the original catachan light infantry feel with a small amount of support from anything besides their Iron grit. I don't really want to add any more vehicles if possible.

The 2 ogryn bodyguards are going into the chimera to be used as a one turn kill of a monster or heavy unit along with straken and his command squad. I cannot fit a squad of 3 bullgryns in the chimera along with straken and his command squad so I have opted for the two to protect straken while simultaneously dishing out high damage in CC.

Additionally I will 100% be changing all 4 of the command squads weapons to melta guns, they are much more effective vs the monster or heavy units i want to target with the ogryns and straken.

I have given bullgyns the 4++ save over the 2+ because the targets they will be fighting will more often then not have at least -3 ap, and its also cheaper to take the 4++ over the 2+. Whether this is the most efficient idk.

I'm heavily considering changing up the leman russ's to battle cannons.

I'm also heavily considering switching the missile launchers in the 3 infantry squads to lascannons just for some top end damage, especially if i switch to battle cannons on my russ's, even if it will be inconsistent.

I'm also considering cutting a squad of veterans and possibly the hellhound to add more mid-long ranged fire power

What changes do you guys think I should take/not take?

Lastly I don't know if any of you play CCG's but I would compare this list to a mid range deck, I push the enemy if I have less ranged firepower using my lesser ranged firepower to focus down specific targets, I hold my lines if I have less firepower using my melee/low ranged units to bolster the lines where the most enemy CC is.

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Re: Catachan [2000] points

Post by Ronin » Tue Mar 20, 2018 9:16 pm

Statistically, plasmas will net you more damage over the course of the game because of the range than melta will and it gives you more flexibility to choose to go up close and rapid fire or poke them from a distance with 24" range. I'd actually keep plasma as long as they can reroll hits and always overcharge. Squad of 4 double tapping is potentially 16 damage. With meltaguns, you REALLY have to get up there for them to be effective with the 6" range for more damage. At that point, you'll certainly kill a target, but it's so situational that it rarely ever happens. It'd be a good counter offensive unit to something deep striking in, but if you fight an opposing gunline they'll certainly bubble wrap with expendable units and keep those meltas away. I do agree with your assessment that the 4++ is way better.

Overall, I think your unit composition is fine and 80 bodies is a lot to chew through. It's more of the loadouts you're arming them with that's holding them down. If you want to be competitive, overcharging plasma spam with reroll hits of 1 is statistically the way to go. Strong in strength and AP, multiple shots, one of the cheaper options, good range and with rerolls of 1, and your chances of overheating is 1/36 per shot.

Edit:

Here's a 100,000 dice roll simulation of the different 40k weapons:
Image

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Re: Catachan [2000] points

Post by mrazek22 » Wed Mar 21, 2018 10:34 am

For me, loading up my 4 man command squad/murder teams with Meltas allows me to do a very special thing, that Plasma doesn't. Advance and Slaughter. Assault weapons, with 3+ ballistics, re-rolling 1s, I deep strike the scion command squads in and use them as vehicle/heavy hunters. To date, they have taken down two Hellbrutes, several rhinos, a chaos termie squad, and 1 pred. The Plasma weapon squads could do that, but not as quickly. advancing my guys up to your beautiful big thing, and roasting it with 4 melta shots, gives the possibility of 24 damage, more often getting 12-17.5 with re-rolls on wounds and the higher dice rule. That is enough to drop anything non superheavy, and cripple a superheavy. Yeah, I play a dangerous game if they fail, but hey, this is a game. I love the thrill of watching my opponent squirm as their tanks get wrecked by a single turn.

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Re: Catachan [2000] points

Post by scumbagprince » Wed Mar 21, 2018 1:34 pm

[EDIT] point costs where off/list has been changed.

1 battalion
3 vangaurd

HQ:
colonel iron hand - 80
3x1 company commander with - 1 chainsword 1 bolter - 93 (one is the warlord and has laurels of command, and master of command)
1 company commander with - 1 plasma pistol 1 powerfist - 45
Elites:
1x4 command squad with lascannon 2 sniper rifles, regemental standard - 53
1x4 command squad with 4 plasma guns - 76
2x4 command squad with 4 las pistols 4 chainswords - 48
4x10 catachan devils - 3 plasma guns, 6 lasguns, 1 boltgun - 400
2x1 ogryn bodygaurd with bullgryn maul, brute shield -124
1 ogryn bodyguard with ripper gun, slab shield, bullgryn plate - 60
Fast attack:
1 bane wolf with 1 heavy bolter, 1 chem cannon - 96
2x1 devil dogs with 1 heavy bolter, 1 melta cannon - 202
Troop:
3x10 catachans jungle fighters:1 boltgun,1 chain sword, 1 las cannon, 1 sniper rifle, 6 lasguns - 189
Heavy:
1x2 leman russ with 1 demolisher cannon, 1 heavy bolter, storm bolter - 344
Transport:
1 chimera with 2 heavy flamer - 99
1 chimera with 1 heavy bolter 1 heavy flamer - 90

Points:1999
CP:9

Changes are

I cut points off the leman russ's and put that towards 2 devil dogs so I can have 4 tanks advancing and it will be harder to focus all my threats down before they get in effective range.

took out the sentinels.

took out the hellhound.

changed the vet squads to 3 plasma guns each

added company commanders so that I can spam re-roll of 1's for my vets, and get more CP's

Added 3 more command squads. One sits back with the basic infantry. Two go in the chimera with straken and his ogryn bodyguard to charge and gain bonus attacks from his aura.

Two of my ogryn bodygaurd go with my warlord and the plasma gun command squad in the chimera.

Some Additional minor changes.

I like this list a lot more than my original so far, it doesn't feel perfect but it might just be good enough for what I'm looking for.
Last edited by scumbagprince on Wed Mar 21, 2018 3:15 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Catachan [2000] points

Post by mrazek22 » Wed Mar 21, 2018 2:01 pm

They need to give Sentinels something to make them effective. Scout units are somewhat pointless. All it has is it's movement. Even with the Lascannon it's still pointless. If you gave them some sort of buff in Wounds or maybe more than 1 shot with the cannon, but even then why even bother? I'd rather take HWTs. Anyone come up with a reason for Sentinels?

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Re: Catachan [2000] points

Post by scumbagprince » Wed Mar 21, 2018 2:20 pm

mrazek22 wrote:
Wed Mar 21, 2018 2:01 pm
They need to give Sentinels something to make them effective. Scout units are somewhat pointless. All it has is it's movement. Even with the Lascannon it's still pointless. If you gave them some sort of buff in Wounds or maybe more than 1 shot with the cannon, but even then why even bother? I'd rather take HWTs. Anyone come up with a reason for Sentinels?
The only reason I could think of was to get weapons with d3/d6 shots on the cheapest vehicles to benefit from the catachan regimental bonus. The only two options though are heavy flamers and heavy sentinels with plasma cannons. But I can't think of a way to give sentinels re-rolls of 1's so its seems risky.

They are more resilient than a HWT, though not very resilient overall I think.

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